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Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by WhyNotHugo on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @09:59AM (#43772307)
US officials and businessmen keep on repeating the same thing:

> The European Commission is attempting to handicap successful American businesses while allowing Chinese and European companies to operate under different standards.

But this is wildly untrue. The EU isn't hand-picking individual organisations and fining them because they're American, they're fining them because they're in breach of existing legislation. The same legislation applies to local companies.

Ironically, it's the US who takes stances like the one they claim the EU is taken. E.g.: The US required that TikTok be sold, without actually proving that TikTok was in breach of any actual law.

But repeating the same claims gets those claims out into the media, and that's what people hear. So we see a dissonance between what the media says (and many people believe) and what's really happening.

Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by fc417fc802 on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @12:01PM (#43773623)
Agreed with your first point. Regarding TikTok though the argument was never (AFAIK) that they were actively breaking the law but rather that their structure and ownership posed a threat to US interests. That's pretty reasonable and largely mirrors China's stance against the US.

If anything the surprising thing is how lenient western governments tend to be towards foreign corporations. They seem to prioritize free trade above all else.

Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by sapphicsnail on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @01:18PM (#43774393)
I find this so confusing. Rupert Murdoch and Elon Musk are foreigners who are both demonstrably influencing American politics through media they control. What makes Tiktok different?
Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by fc417fc802 on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @03:57PM (#43776046)
The same thing that would make a platform with ties to Russia different. It falls under the influence of a sophisticated geopolitical adversary.

Tesla is headquartered and has most operations based in the US. Murdoch's ventures are similar AFAIK.

Given how much surveillance modern vehicles do I wouldn't be surprised if imports start being subjected to additional scrutiny at some point. But at least most vehicles can't be used to subtly and intentionally manipulate the owner's perception of the world so I guess the stakes are a bit lower.

Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by dybber on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @02:22PM (#43775103)
TikTok probably didn’t make friends and pay bribes to the right people.
Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by madeofpalk on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @01:28PM (#43774513)
Rupert Murdoch has exclusively been a US citizen for 40 years.

But really, what makes Tiktok different is China.

Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by pbiggar on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @01:25PM (#43774477)
What makes Tiktok different is the GenZ were talking about Palestine on it, and the US and Israel couldn't allow that to happen.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/us-tiktok-ban-linked-isra...

Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by nozzlegear on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @05:20PM (#43776730)
Rupert Murdoch and Elon Musk are both American citizens. In fact, one of Murdoch's primary reasons for becoming an American citizen in 1985 was to comply with the Communications Act of 1934, which prevented him (or any non-citizen) from owning more than 25% of a broadcasting company.

Here's a piece of history from 1985 that talks about it: https://archive.ph/HlHrx

Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by returningfory2 on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @09:31PM (#43778470)
The idea that Murdoch and Musk are not really American and are instead foreigners is a disgusting anti-immigrant sentiment.
Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by baby on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @01:30PM (#43774540)
The US is lying about tiktok, the only reason is to mirror China's strategy towards American app. After watching the tit-for-tat video of Veritasum[1] I agree with America's strategy of banning Chinese apps until China allows American apps. That being said, I wish the US was more transparent about why they're doing this instead of lying.

I'm guessing the reason why they're lying is that they don't want to scare ALL Chinese companies.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mScpHTIi-kM

Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by Henchman21 on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @07:33PM (#43777826)
The reason they’re lying is because they’ve been lying for so long it just happens reflexively. It’s all they know anymore.
Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by WhyNotHugo on Thursday April 24, 2025 @08:04AM (#43781713)
> that their structure and ownership posed a threat to US interests.

This is pretty much as vague as it gets "they're doing _something_ wrong".

The exact behaviour that is prohibited needs to be codified into law. Then you can go after organisations what break such law.

In this case, they've just been found guilty of an unwritten crime.

> If anything the surprising thing is how lenient western governments tend to be towards foreign corporations

Corporations in general rather. I do agree that we should be stricter of foreign corporations, and on non-foreign ones equally so.

Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by walkingthisquai on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @11:51AM (#43773522)
Well... Though I agree with you in principle, the DMA does target specific gatekeeper companies and the criteria for these were set conveniently to ensure no EU company is regulated by it. So I can see their point a little
Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by jakob_endler on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @12:21PM (#43773831)
thats only kinda right. The DMA does include booking.com as a gatekeeper, which is european. But most gatekeepers (except booking and tiktok) are US-based
Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by Aloisius on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @01:21PM (#43774427)
Booking Holdings is American. They bought booking.com in 2005.
Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by bojan on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @01:27PM (#43774504)
Booking.com was European, is not any more. It is now a subsidiary of Booking Holding (formerly Priceline), based in Connecticut.
Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by chgs on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @04:14PM (#43776193)
That’s of course the reason these types of companies are American - Americans are rich and can buy out foreign companies which are successful.
Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by nickff on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @07:27PM (#43777785)
There are plenty of EU companies that buy into new markets or opportunities, they just fall outside of these laws; Siemens is a good example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siemens
Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by johnmaguire on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @12:25PM (#43773868)
Isn't the question whether they were set because they were US companies, or because they are dominant gatekeepers on the Internet?

5/7 designated gatekeepers are US companies: https://digital-markets-act.ec.europa.eu/gatekeepers_en

Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by dwaite on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @01:11PM (#43774311)
I thought Booking Holdings Inc was also American.

There are zero European companies, including Spotify - the #1 music streaming marketplace in the world.

Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by johnmaguire on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @01:36PM (#43774602)
My mistake. While Booking.com is HQ'd in Amsterdam, Booking Holdings is indeed a US company (also responsible for Priceline, Kayak, and OpenTable.)

> There are zero European companies, including Spotify - the #1 music streaming marketplace in the world.

This still doesn't answer the actual question of whether the gatekeepers were selected because they are US companies, or because they are are Internet gatekeepers. I don't find it surprising that the US's legal and economic culture resulted in more conglomerate gatekeepers than other nations.

Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by Zopieux on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @01:23PM (#43774443)
What exactly does Spotify gatekeep though?
Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by Aloisius on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @01:30PM (#43774541)
They're a gatekeeper in the same way YouTube or TikTok is.

They control access of businesses, in this case music labels, to the final customer.

Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by johnmaguire on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @01:35PM (#43774580)
That's not really true. You can easily switch to Deezer, Apple Music, Tidal, Qobuz, YouTube Music, etc. You'll have access to just about the exact same library of music.

You can't just ignore YouTube, TikTok, Facebook Marketplace and still have access to the content they gatekeep.

Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by Aloisius on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @01:54PM (#43774786)
The DMA doesn't care how easy for final customers to switch. If it did, Chrome wouldn't be designated a gatekeeper given how easy it is to switch to Firefox or brave or a dozen other browsers.

The DMA is about disintermediation of businesses from customers on large platforms with business and non-business users and durable user bases.

Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by johnmaguire on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @02:07PM (#43774920)
The problem with Chrome and the DMA has to do with the fact that Alphabet does these "don'ts":

- treat services and products offered by the gatekeeper itself more favourably in ranking than similar services or products offered by third parties on the gatekeeper's platform

- prevent users from un-installing any pre-installed software or app if they wish so (Chrome on Android can be disabled but not uninstalled)

- track end users outside of the gatekeepers' core platform service for the purpose of targeted advertising, without effective consent having been granted.

https://digital-markets-act.ec.europa.eu/about-dma_en#what-d...

Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by Aloisius on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @02:27PM (#43775166)
None of that is used to determine who is a gatekeeper.

The assessment for whether Chrome qualified as a gatekeeper is less than 3 pages long. All they care about is whether they qualify as a platform and that they are over the threshold for active non-business users, active business users, revenue in the EU for enough time.

At no point did they concern themselves with potential anti-competitive practices in making the determination.

It's only after they're designated a gatekeeper that they're required to avoid things like self-preferencing or negotiating MFN terms with business. This conveniently allows the EU to pick and choose who the restrictive rules apply to on a company by company and product by product basis.

https://ec.europa.eu/competition/digital_markets_act/cases/2...

Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by johnmaguire on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @02:55PM (#43775471)
I think the document you really want to look at is this one, which is the actual regulation the DMA is operating under: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2022/1925/oj/eng

That regulation is very much concerned with anti-competitive practices. What we're seeing now is the application (or execution) of those regulations.

When I look at Regulation (EU) 2022/1925, it's pretty clear to me that Spotify does not have, for example, "very strong network effects, an ability to connect many business users with many end users through the multisidedness of these services, a significant degree of dependence of both business users and end users, lock-in effects, a lack of multi-homing for the same purpose by end users, vertical integration, and data driven-advantages."

Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by Aloisius on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @03:18PM (#43775711)
What?

Spotify most certainly does have strong network effects (your friends are all on it, the party you go to with collaborative playlists uses it, etc), data driven-advantages (Spotify's personalized recommendations are built on vast historical playing data), lock-in effects (your playlist/history and all your friends' playlists are there), dependence of businesses users (Spotify is the go-to platform for music labels for promotion and only way to reach certain customers) and end users (because of network and lock-in effects).

Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by johnmaguire on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @03:47PM (#43775963)
I think we might have a fundamental disagreement that we'll have to agree to disagree on.

From a brief search, Facebook and Google are responsible for ~60-80% or more of digital advertising spend. This is because of their data-driven advantages that come from the multisidedness of their services, forcing a dependence of business users.

While Spotify does have social features, I don't really know anyone who joined Spotify because that's "where their friends were." The social features consist primarily of playlists (which can be viewed without an account) and a feed showing what friends are listening to, if you connect to Facebook - which many don't. Additionally, Spotify has very open APIs that make it easy to move a playlist to another service: https://developer.spotify.com/documentation/web-api/referenc...

Facebook requires an account to access Marketplace, even to view it (lock-in effects), and many communities and neighborhoods have made Facebook the sole source of online discussion / information sharing (strong network effects.) Eschewing Facebook means missing information you can't get any other way. And it's literally impossible to avoid Google online.

Simply having a product and customers ("your friends are all on it, the party you go to with collaborative playlists uses") or an audience ("Spotify's personalized recommendations are built on vast historical playing data") is not the same as being a gatekeeper.

Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by oarsinsync on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @07:58PM (#43777983)
> I don't really know anyone who joined Spotify because that's "where their friends were." The social features consist primarily of playlists (which can be viewed without an account)

Former Apple Music user here. I switched because of Spotify’s collaborative playlists. Technically, I could have used a sync solution to sync changes between platforms. In reality, it was just cheaper all around to switch to Spotify instead, and be on the same platform as my partner and friends. Being able to open Spotify links being sent to me without having to run it though some translation shortcut was wonderful.

Apple deleting all my playlists immediately after my subs lapsed was the icing on the cake to never return.

Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by caseyy on Thursday April 24, 2025 @03:57AM (#43780244)
With regard to Spotify, the case is surprisingly clear.

The criteria for gatekeepers are the following:

1. The company must have a core platform service in online advertising, browsers, intermediation (distribution), communication, OS, search engines, social networks, or video sharing. These are the areas of concern for the legislature.

2. They must have either a €7.5B turnover in the EEA for three consecutive years or a market capitalization of at least €75B.

3. For three consecutive years, it must have either over 45 million active EU users or over 10,000 active business EU users.

Initially, in 2020, the EC suggested that the market sectors concerned would also include travel, audio streaming, film/TV on-demand streaming, and e-commerce, as it identified significant market concentration in these areas. Spotify eats up 55% of the EU streaming market, and Booking.com - 35% of EU hotel bookings. Netflix, Amazon Prime, HBO, Sky, and DAZN collectively account for 90% of the EU TV/film streaming. Along with current market gatekeepers, these companies were the reason for the new EU DMA laws.

Today, Spotify arguably still meets the criteria. It is an intermediation platform that distributes music and podcasts, similar to YouTube, an identified gatekeeper, distributing videos and podcasts. It has nearly 200 million active users in the EEA and a market capitalization of over €120 billion. By all criteria, it should be included, and it was included at a point in time.

The only reason it's not included is procedural. The core platform services (area of concern) in final DMA didn't include audio streaming. Therefore, Spotify was never asked to self-assess for gatekeeper status, its assessment was never processed, and so on and so forth. The same applies to Booking.com.

It's relatively clear and transparent that these EU gatekeepers conveniently fell through the legislative loopholes. Then again, there are other unaccounted-for areas of concern/core platform services provided by other companies like Uber. Arguably, Uber's price-dumping strategy to monopolize markets poses a greater threat to EU consumers and local competing companies than Spotify. So why wasn't ride-sharing a core platform service in DMA? Who knows. Just one more suspicious omission, like Spotify.

The only justification I can think of for this that doesn't show EEA bias towards its own companies is "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good". Maybe DMA regulation is coming for Spotify next, the EC just didn't do a thorough enough job this round.

Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by makeitdouble on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @06:08PM (#43777175)
I'd argue this style of concentrating power under a single giant company is mostly American style.

EU companies tend to keep group entities separate instead of running for absolute synergies. For instance the AOL-Time-Warner-Direct-Dish kind of merger is pretty much unheard of.

Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by paxys on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @10:07AM (#43772415)
US corporations are too used to breaking laws as they see fit and getting away with a slap on the wrist, so being asked to follow the rules feels like an attack to them.
Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by bamboozled on Thursday April 24, 2025 @12:36AM (#43779290)
They're also very used to lobbying to get what they want, as soon as that's not possible, they have a tantrum.
Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by StressedDev on Thursday April 24, 2025 @03:27AM (#43780097)
That is not my experience. Every US company I have worked in spent a lot of time training employees to follow the relevant laws. I have even been on teams which had to do work to comply with the European GDPR. The message I have always received is follow the law and don’t break it.
Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by throwaway2037 on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @11:54AM (#43773560)
I think you make many good points. Slight tangent: Why isn't EU more concerned about TikTok? While it is very difficult to prove, various studies have demonstrated that TikTok pushes more content favoring the Chinese Government (CCP).
Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by staunton on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @12:37PM (#43773947)
> TikTok pushes more content favoring the Chinese Government (CCP).

Does that violate EU law? (Serious question, I really don't know)

Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by kome on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @12:54PM (#43774101)
no, and as far I know it doesn't violate any US law either. the thing against tiktok is not based on law, but based on suspicions.
Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by pbiggar on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @01:27PM (#43774493)
Actually, the problem the US had with Tiktok that was it did not censor people from talking about Palestine

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/us-tiktok-ban-linked-isra...

Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by Aloisius on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @01:43PM (#43774678)
The timeline doesn't align for that at all. National security concerns were raised before the Pentagon banned in in 2019, then Trump ordered it to divest in 2020.

No doubt that it became an argument by some more recently, but it was just another straw on the already broken camel's back.

Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by bojan on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @01:29PM (#43774528)
In my anecdotal experience of one, American platforms are way faster in pushing far-right content on me even though it has to be clear to the algorithm that I don't want such content.

TikTok never does that.

Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by fragmede on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @02:17PM (#43775041)
it's not difficult to prove. In the wake of the tarrifs, everyone in the US got Chinese manufacturing videos pushed to their feed so customers can buy direct from factories and avoid huge markups by a middleman.
Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by Draiken on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @04:23PM (#43776270)
Or, you know, Chinese businesses acted like businesses and capitalized on the orange man's stupidity and naturally went viral.

The tinfoil hats come out pretty quickly when China is mentioned but Occam's razor still applies here.

Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by fragmede on Thursday April 24, 2025 @05:47PM (#43787870)
I don't think Occam's razor applies here. Before the tarrifs, Donghua Jinlong glycine going viral was a silly Internet thing, but the tarrifs are big business and it might come off as a tin foil hat theory that the CCP exerted control over TikTok to push videos that undercut American companies in the face of American tarrifs, but geopolitics is very big business. Believing that those videos came up organically seems naive because this shit is a big deal with far reaching global ramifications.
Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by afiori on Sunday April 27, 2025 @06:47PM (#43815770)
If the EU were to worry about foreign propaganda then that would hit the US far harder than China
Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by skyyler on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @11:42AM (#43773420)
>So we see a dissonance between what the media says (and many people believe) and what's really happening.

This thing right here terrifies me. The entertainment-information media oligopoly has a tight grasp on public conversations. It feels like a hydra that can't be defeated.

Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by wizzwizz4 on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @12:03PM (#43773639)
It can be defeated by talking to people about things. If you are known to be an expert in topic X, and you are saying something different to what the media says about topic X (and which makes more sense), people (who know you and your reputation) are inclined to believe you over the media.

This only has a local impact, but global is made of local.

Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by skyyler on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @12:19PM (#43773804)
I do this as much as I can. Between chatrooms and local meets, I spend a significant portion of my time attempting to politely dispel misinformation.

It's exhausting, but it's worth it.

I want to organise with other people that do this, but I'm not sure how to do that. It feels like our efforts would be multiplied if we started to publish or otherwise spread information.

Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by Herring on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @01:16PM (#43774368)
That's called gaslighting, and it's a hostile act. Truth is the first casualty of war. If someone is trying to deceive you (or deceive others and ruin your reputation), they are actively exposing you to some kind of risk, usually for their own benefit, which is a hostile act. Recommend you act accordingly.
Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by jerf on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @01:31PM (#43774553)
There is no irony. The EU is targeting US companies. The US is targeting Chinese companies. The US is or soon will be targeting EU companies. China is targeting US companies. China will probably soon be targeting EU companies if they aren't already, which is probably already debatable. And this is not a complete list, it's not even a complete list of the highlights.

If they're doing it by legislation, well, the EU has been passing "legislation clearly designed for US companies to be in infringement of" for a while. Maybe you like that. Maybe it's a good thing; after all, the things they're passing laws about are basically just actions only US companies are capable of taking right now. Nevertheless it is clearly targeting. It's just targeting you like. The US has passed such legislation. China does it both with formal legislation and with de facto rules.

Free trade is a dead letter. Whether you like that or not is not very relevant to whether or not it is dead. It's dead. Maybe it'll swing back around in a few decades but right now even that is a distant prospect, we're not even done accelerating into the current merchantalist phase of the cycle, let alone decelerating, let alone heading back.

(Note "whataboutism" would be an inappropriate response to my point here; that's about "it's ok for us because they do it". My observation is not normative, merely descriptive... everyone is doing it, and they're doing it more rather than less right now.)

Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by tonyedgecombe on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @02:52PM (#43775443)
>The US is or soon will be targeting EU companies.

They already do, lookup how many European banks have been fined by the US and by how much then compare that to US banks.

Everybody plays these games.

Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by mfld on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @06:02PM (#43777116)
Another irony is that the biggest (business) beneficiaries of applied DMA would be other US-based digital services companies like Netflix or Epic.
Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by fooker on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @07:45PM (#43777907)
> The same legislation applies to local companies.

It doesn't matter what applies, only what's enforced matters.

Laws being selectively enforced for an agenda is a tale as old as the existence of laws.

Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by Braxton1980 on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @10:53PM (#43778864)
This is a side note but I don't understand why you called out the media when your quote wasn't from them but reporting a person's opinion
Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by toast0 on Thursday April 24, 2025 @01:19AM (#43779474)
> But this is wildly untrue. The EU isn't hand-picking individual organisations and fining them because they're American, they're fining them because they're in breach of existing legislation. The same legislation applies to local companies.

The iPhone App store existed before this legislation, and I suspect the rest of the targetted things did too.

This legislation only applies to companies that have a certain marketshare, which includes no European companies unless you count one that's a subsidiary of a US company.

Maybe it's the case that it is reasonable to handicap successful businesses, but this is a handicap that only applies to some businesses, most of which are US (but one is Chinese).

Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by afiori on Sunday April 27, 2025 @06:43PM (#43815734)
Which EU company do you feel should be included in the list? Considering that one of the main criteria is the ability to abuse monopolies.
Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by EasyMark on Thursday April 24, 2025 @01:20AM (#43779483)
I mean I understand they are doing, but also why aren't they fining European and Chinese companies for the same thing?
Re:Apple and Meta fined millions for breaching EU law by afiori on Sunday April 27, 2025 @06:40PM (#43815713)
Because the only non-US app/marketplace big enough to be affected by the DMA is tiktok.