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Re:Native visionOS platform support by josephg on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @02:03AM (#43769085)
> Hell would freeze over before Apple conformed and contributed to an existing open standard.

Better get some blankets because Apple has made significant contributions to many open standards - for example, USB-C. And, back in the day, OpenGL.

Its a mistake to think of a large company like apple as if it were a person, with their own goals and ideas. Apple is just too big for that. I mean, they have 164,000 staff. Thats big enough that "small" business units will still have thousands of people. So each area will end up creating its own culture, and have its own way of doing things.

The graphics division - these days - seems very intent on doing their own thing. But that doesn't tell us much about the rest of apple. 164 000 people is a lot of people. That's an awful lot of different opinions about open standards.

Re:Native visionOS platform support by andsoitis on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @02:11AM (#43769139)
> The graphics division - these days - seems very intent on doing their own thing.

Apple is a top-down hierarchy with ruthless business strategy. Not a value judgment; merely a fact to keep in mind when entering a business relationship with Apple.

Mike Rockwell, serves as the Vice President of the Vision Products Group. Rockwell has been instrumental in spearheading the Vision Pro project and the underlying visionOS platform. His leadership has been pivotal in advancing Apple’s spatial computing initiatives.

To think he and his team have not made intentional choices to support/advance or undermine OpenXR would be naïve in my view.

Re:Native visionOS platform support by josephg on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @02:22AM (#43769195)
> To think he and his team have not made intentional choices to support/advance or undermine OpenXR would be naïve in my view.

I'm sure their choices are intentional. But thats just one business unit. Apple is a huge company. And different areas have different priorities.

Re:Native visionOS platform support by andsoitis on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @02:41AM (#43769285)
Not relevant. The VisionOS crew have decided to not support OpenXR and Apple has broadly decided not to support Vulkan, which, together with DirectX are the primary VR rendering technologies.
Re:Native visionOS platform support by josephg on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @03:08AM (#43769414)
Not relevant to what? I think we’re talking past each other.

I agree with your point - Apple clearly wants Metal & friends to be their own thing. But the comment I was replying to above commented on Apple and standards. It didn’t mention graphics at all. I replied, discussing Apple as a whole.

Re:Native visionOS platform support by troupo on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @03:22AM (#43769489)
> The VisionOS crew have decided to not support OpenXR and Apple has broadly decided not to support Vulkan

Because they already have their own graphics API called Metal. Why aren't you asking Microsoft to drop DirectX and start first-party support for Vulkan?

Re:Native visionOS platform support by andsoitis on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @03:43AM (#43769603)
The reality is that virtual reality and gaming technology have largely converged on DirectX and Vulkan for rendering.

I can empathize with Apple’s desire to get more adoption of Metal, but I predict it is an uphill battle to insist on it on platforms like spatial computing that is already having a very hard time to win adoption.

Re:Native visionOS platform support by pjmlp on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @05:01AM (#43770009)
Forgetting about NVN and LibGNM/LibGNMX?
Re:Native visionOS platform support by alexvitkov on Monday April 28, 2025 @12:51AM (#43817682)
Maybe people would forget about them less often if they were allowed to talk about them
Re:Native visionOS platform support by tormeh on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @04:58AM (#43769985)
Because DirectX is a success and Metal is not.

If Apple wanted Metal to be a success then they'd need Windows devices to support it, and ideally a console too (like DirectX with Xbox).

There's a lot of bad things you can say about Vulkan's market position relative to DirectX, but it's clearly more successful than Metal. More games and work applications are written in it. I don't see what Apple gains from going their own way. Maybe Vulkan will rot by committee like OpenGL once did, but that hasn't happened yet.

Re:Native visionOS platform support by pjmlp on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @05:00AM (#43770003)
I am quite certain the folks selling iOS games see it otherwise.
Re:Native visionOS platform support by moron4hire on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @08:44AM (#43771447)
Most of those games could be written to run on a toaster. Most of those games are written by people who use Unity, so they don't really care about the underlying system and may not even understand what Metal is at all.
Re:Native visionOS platform support by pjmlp on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @09:33AM (#43771986)
Such are the wonders of middleware, standards aren't really needed.

By the way, I am still waiting to see those toaster like games on WebGL 2.0.

Re:Native visionOS platform support by surajrmal on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @10:31AM (#43772676)
Even without a standard, people will create abstractions on top so all you need to do is add support to those abstractions. If needing to conform to a standard was hampering Apple's ability to get developers to make software for their platforms they would add support. It's obviously not materially affecting them.
Re:Native visionOS platform support by dangus on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @11:44PM (#43779078)
I think this whole thread is besides the point anyway.

VisionOS doesn't support VR gaming at a basic controller level. All it can do is the same traditional console controllers that other Apple devices support (PlayStation, Switch, Xbox, etc).

Metal vs. DirectX vs. Vulkan isn't the problem, the basic input devices and lack of interoperability with other non-graphics VR tooling/SDKs are the problem.

I know that Apple doesn't see it as a gaming device and mostly sucks at interfacing with the non-mobile gaming sphere, but if they had come out of the gate with messaging that was more like "We have built-in support for popular VR controllers, game developers can just do XYZ simple thing to port their games to VisionOS," they would have had some immediate momentum to help bolster the other select few things the device excels at.

But as it stands, nobody can make any of the kinds of abstractions you are referring to because the hardware is not capable of using the basic input devices that VR games depend on. Full stop.

Instead, prospective buyers are almost certainly comparing the Vision Pro with devices like the Meta Quest Pro and thinking "well, the Apple thing does some Apple stuff that nothing else can do, but I can't even play any occasional VR games on my Vision Pro and it's literally the most expensive headset money can buy."

The truth of the matter is that a Quest 3 can do pass-through vision, VR web content, and web browsing along with a decent selection of non-gaming apps at a tiny fraction of the cost of a Vision Pro and you don't even lose all that much due to it being less premium and advanced.

Even if we are comparing against a hypothetical $999 future Vision device where the external battery is gone and it weighs less it still doesn't compare all that well in that context. An analogy would be like if the iPhone wasn't allowed to make video calls and Android was. Maybe I don't use video calling every day but I can't justify buying a phone that doesn't have a feature like that as a concept.

IMO Apple thinks that controlling the device with just the hands and no controllers is the future. They feel like they have the iPhone all over again and that all the competitors using the metaphorical stylus and built-in keyboard are wrong. But as we found out with the iPad, sometimes a specialized input device (Apple Pencil) does serve a specific subset of customers very well to the point where it's considered a basic necessity.

Re:Native visionOS platform support by DecentShoes on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @03:53AM (#43769659)
>Apple has made significant contributions to many open standards - for example, USB-C.

And then refused to use it until the EU forced them

Re:Native visionOS platform support by latexr on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @05:14AM (#43770087)
USB-C has been in use on MacBooks for at least a decade.
Re:Native visionOS platform support by dan_can_code on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @05:20AM (#43770119)
Thank god they brought back MagSafe charging recently.
Re:Native visionOS platform support by carlhjerpe on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @08:09AM (#43771163)
I agree with you, but in practice I've never had a problem with USB-C at all and everything mobile I own has USB-C except my face trimmer, and the next one will be USB-C for sure.

If you're worried about the port in a classroom environment you can use a short extension that you plug in on the device end, it will make the connection separate much easier if something unfortunate happens.

Re:Native visionOS platform support by nmcfarl on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @09:03AM (#43771674)
I lost a Mac laptop in the pre-MagSafe days, to a bullpen environment –a sysadmin was rushing to a meeting, snagged his foot, and took the cable and the laptop off the desk at high speeds.

After that, I was a big fan of MagSafe, but today’s USB-C and better batteries situation solves a lot of problems that MagSafe did in a different way. It allows for you to have multiple reasonably priced chargers, so the one on your desk can be safely placed, with a short unsnaggable cable. And you can still go to meetings and take your laptop home – because you have another cable in your bag and another at home.

So these days, I barely use the MagSafe cable on my MacBook Pro.

Re:Native visionOS platform support by tpmoney on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @04:56PM (#43776538)
Come on. USB-C has been shipped on MacBooks since 2015, and most of their other systems since ~2020. Heck they caught a bunch of flack when they killed MagSafe on their MacBooks and went USB-C only (not just for the lack of mag safe, but also plenty of grief for lack of Ethernet and HDMI too). With or without the EU mandates they were clearly on a trend moving their devices to USB-C
Re:Native visionOS platform support by charcircuit on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @04:11AM (#43769736)
USB-C is not a Khronos standard.
Re:Native visionOS platform support by bigyabai on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @02:09AM (#43769127)
I think people are (rightfully) upset at the business-oriented decisions that limit MacOS as a platform, prevent competition on iOS and demand annual tithes from their developers like they're peons tilling land for coin. These are fair criticisms, prosecuted in a few courts even, and well within the realm of reasonable change.

Apple makes great things for their users when they collaborate with the industry. That's why we're concerned when they abandon standards and demand convergence on suspicious centralized cloud crap.

Re:Native visionOS platform support by troupo on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @03:24AM (#43769508)
> That's why we're concerned when they abandon standards

Is DirectX a standard? Is Playstation NDK (or whatever it's called) a standard?

Vulkan is not a "standard". It's a designed-by-committee API that arrived on the scene years after "non-standard" APIs.

Re:Native visionOS platform support by kimixa on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @04:44AM (#43769909)
> It's a designed-by-committee API

So a "standard"?

Maybe I'm biased as I was involved with the standardization - but the whole point of a standard is something is legally possible to implement, communicates the needed information to the layer below, and general enough that it doesn't require specific hardware.

All boxes are checked by Vulkan? At least that was the intention.

So what if the origin of Vulkan was AMD's donation of Mantle, and the committee knocked the "hardware specific" points off - isn't that the desired result?

Re:Native visionOS platform support by pjmlp on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @05:02AM (#43770016)
NVN on the Switch, PlayStation has two APIs, one high level and one low level one, LibGNMX and LibGNM respectively.
Re:Native visionOS platform support by troupo on Wednesday April 23, 2025 @05:20AM (#43770120)
For some reason I can never remember those names :)