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Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by buybackoff on Friday March 21, 2025 @06:09PM (#43441279)
I've found the original debates video on the National Assembly website. My French is good enough for that (not enough for cooking et al. though), so I believe I understood. I'm positively surprised by some deputies remarks. But Bruno (interior minister) Retailleau is either totally incompetent technically, with his advisors as well, or is a liar. "We will apply the math selectively, only for those that are a threat and when the big brother approves"... In every country it's the same narrative. This time it was not about children, but "Freeing France from the drug trafficking trap" ("Sortir la France du piège du narcotrafic"). And it looks like it was not the main point and they tried to pass it as a minor subnote or something. ... They will find dozens of other issues to cancel the math.

https://videos.assemblee-nationale.fr/video.16453163_67dc786...

Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by hansvm on Friday March 21, 2025 @06:43PM (#43441532)
Totally unrelated, but since you brought it up a bit, I find recipes written in French to usually be much higher quality than similar recipes I find in English -- enough so that I'll alter my country and language for search engines when searching for recipes, and for ChatGPT I'll ask the question French.

Modern translation products aren't too terrible to cook from. Especially if you know some French already, I think you'd get good results dropping your recipes into an online translator and trying to make the most of it.

Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by yodsanklai on Friday March 21, 2025 @07:58PM (#43441984)
As a French, English is my default language for most queries on the web, but it wouldn't cross my mind to look up for a recipe in English. I also find that we have a lot of good science/maths youtube channels.
Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by Symbiote on Saturday March 22, 2025 @04:34AM (#43444370)
If searching for recipes in English, you need to add "UK" or maybe "Australia" to avoid the American recipes. (Avoiding US measurements and processed ingredients.)

But even then, there's still a lot of spammy or dumbed-down content. I look for sites I recognise.

Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by buybackoff on Friday March 21, 2025 @06:58PM (#43441610)
What I had in mind is that I go to a local market every Sunday to buy some nice fresh food. But e.g. for the fish/meat I still only understand 1/3 or 1/2 of the names/terms. Nevertheless, I have read some lengthy tax code sections more than once in details... I do not cook like a French, and - oh - they cook really nice! :)
Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by shabgzer on Friday March 21, 2025 @11:17PM (#43443072)
Try German, too. I'm always amazed at the level of German writing, even by regular joes on forums and Discord, compared to for instance Dutch writing.
Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by hansvm on Saturday March 22, 2025 @12:09AM (#43443423)
I might. I hardly know anything about the German language though right now. Do you have a rough sense of how much I'd need to study to be able to supplement with automatic tools and do something useful with German sources (50hrs, 500, ...)?
Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by zxexz on Saturday March 22, 2025 @03:59AM (#43444277)
Probably closer to 50 than 500, assuming you've done something similar before and you have "native" proficiency with another germanic language. Honestly, just read the Dover First German Reader, watch a few TV shows end to end with captions a couple times, turning them off and on and rewinding whenever. Read some german-language forums, and watch some German language talks. That won't get you anywhere near conversational proficiency nor develop any speaking skills, but more than enough to get great value out of written text and a lot of talks, especially with some tools to help.
Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by mytailorisrich on Friday March 21, 2025 @06:22PM (#43441362)
France is in decay with incompetent and unpatriotic governments for decades.

It is facing many issues but has lacked strong leadership courageous enough to put country first. So, in fact, it is a fairly typical European country...

The spread of "narcotrafic" is an example of that, there are others. If you follow French news you'll see many.

Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by buybackoff on Friday March 21, 2025 @06:30PM (#43441430)
I live in France for the last 5 years. Been to many places in the world. France is OK overall.
Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by mytailorisrich on Friday March 21, 2025 @06:39PM (#43441505)
Well I am French. "OK overall" is obviously good but at global scale this means better than the "third world", so context is important.

The context of my previous reply is France's "direction of travel", which negative like most other European countries. This is a key metric on any meaningful timescale, which is what ultimately matters.

Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by buybackoff on Friday March 21, 2025 @06:52PM (#43441577)
I beliebe you are talking about the first derivative. I want to believe the second is all right lately.

The scariest thing in France I've seen is ~20yo voting for Mel-the-leftist-egocentric-schmuck so that they could keep doing nothing but taxing productive people. Other that that the "direction of travel" is dual: either drown in the mire of ever increasing taxes or kick ass. My feeling is that France has everything for the later, but for some weird reason prefers the former. Yet, in the meantime, it's OK. And the very latest geopolitics headlines are nice, if they ever come true.

My original point was about individual rights. I'm glad the country stands firm on that.

Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by mytailorisrich on Friday March 21, 2025 @07:05PM (#43441650)
I agree with you. On individual rights I would qualify that by saying that France has never been leading on them. The state is what matters and individual rights have always in practice been restricted to that effect.
Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by buybackoff on Friday March 21, 2025 @08:10PM (#43442050)
I admit ambiguity, but I meant 180 opposite. I believe France is and has been the top at individual freedom. That perception is an important reason I'm there, so I acted on it.
Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by Cyph0n on Friday March 21, 2025 @08:24PM (#43442136)
How can you say that when individuals are not allowed to show religious symbols or wear religious clothing in any government-affiliated setting?

I don’t see how state-enforced irreligiousness (secularism/laicite) doesn’t completely contradict with individual freedoms.

Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by buybackoff on Friday March 21, 2025 @08:41PM (#43442251)
Cela s'appelle la laïcité.

If you have problems with that there are so many 3rd world countries that care about medieval stuff more than development. I think laïcité is one of the coolest words/concept, France should only really enforce it further.

Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by Cyph0n on Friday March 21, 2025 @09:00PM (#43442353)
Whatever floats your boat. But claiming that France is the pinnacle of maintaining individual freedoms contradicts with a nanny state that polices religious expression. You can’t have it both ways.
Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by buybackoff on Friday March 21, 2025 @09:43PM (#43442535)
It's water that floats anyone's boats. It's the physics+linguistics. The problems start when people try to substitute the meaning of things.
Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by realusername on Saturday March 22, 2025 @01:10AM (#43443734)
Keeping religion out of the state is a good thing, the previous statu quo in France before that used to be that the Christians were policing everybody.

We can see now in the US how not having this concept is creating a lot of social issues with Cristian fundamentalists running the state.

Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by whatevertrevor on Saturday March 22, 2025 @06:17AM (#43444724)
There's a significant difference between separating the state's concerns from religious dogma, and restricting an individual's ability to dress in accordance with their belief system. I have wondered if jeans would be banned in France if one made a religion with only wearing jeans in public as its dogma.

And before I get any questions about it, I say this as a lifelong atheist.

Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by ur-whale on Saturday March 22, 2025 @06:55AM (#43444897)
> I believe France is and has been the top at individual freedom.

You could not be more wrong.

However, I am not surprised you would believe that: I have quite a few French friends who believe the exact same thing because they've all drunk the kool-aid that was served to them during their school years, namely that France is the country who invented human rights, freedom of speech, etc...

Nothing could be further from the truth (England is a way better approximation to "invented free speech" than France ever was, where do you think Voltaire discovered what Freedom really meant if not during his exile years in England?).

Even today, your average Frenchmen is dead convinced that freedom of speech in France is one of the best in the world and a fundamental value of French society.

If you compare it to Iran or North Korea, fair enough. But then go look up what happened to a guy named Dieudonne if you want a perfect example of there being no freedom of speech whatsoever in France.

Compared to global standards, France is really not high on the individual freedom / freedom of speech scales, but then you have to be able to properly compare things to make vaguely correct calls on such things.

And if you have never left your country nor master English well enough to understand what goes on outside your tiny cultural bubble, and you have been indoctrinated by the French school system since day one, it's a perfectly normal thing to believe.

Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by MITSardine on Saturday March 22, 2025 @12:27PM (#43446861)
Could you give concrete examples of situations where your freedom is restricted in France?
Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by ur-whale on Saturday March 22, 2025 @02:02PM (#43447458)
> Could you give concrete examples

I thought I already did, but here it is again

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieudonn%C3%A9_M%27bala_M%27ba...

The dude kept on saying completely outrageous things on public channels, none of which should have been an issue in a country with normal free speech laws.

Here's another interesting case, where a TV channel was outright shutdown because they said things that the powers that be didn't like. I guess Moscow isn't that far east of France:

https://www.reuters.com/business/media-telecom/french-tv-cha...

Here's another interesting aspect of life in the land of stinky cheese: cash is by law legal tender, as in:

https://www.banque-france.fr/en/monetary-strategy/means-of-p...

However, it is illegal to buy anything with cash if the transaction is more than 1k euros:

https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F10999?...

These are just off the top of my head, the list is very long and quite sad.

Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by MITSardine on Saturday March 22, 2025 @02:40PM (#43447652)
Excuse me? C8 would be right in its place in Moscow, on the contrary. It's a propaganda channel owned by a billionaire FN backer. Cyril Hanouna is basically a Russian TV host that speaks French. The embodiment of bad faith.

At any rate, one of the main reasons was the repeated offenses of the channel, having beaten a record of fines, and never having done anything to correct their course. Fines are not a cost of operation, they are penalties for breaking the law. You can't break the law systematically and then cry about not getting your license renewed. Though I'm sure Hanouna has painted himself quite the victim in this affair.

These fines were often for things I think most people would view as legitimate, such as verbal assault, threats or hate speech.

About cash payments, I think you're making a caricature. From your source:

> There is no limit to the amount paid in cash between individuals (e.g. car purchase). Written text is required beyond €1,500 for to prove payments.

This written text is just a proof of sale, not a justification as to the use of cash or its provenience.

The 1000€ figure is when dealing with professionals, among other reasons to avoid VAT fraud. Many countries implement similar measures, often more stringent. Regardless, I'm almost sure your chauffagiste or mechanic will accept a cash payment of any amount. There is the theory, and then the practice.

I really struggle to see how this affects your life in any way.

Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by ur-whale on Saturday March 22, 2025 @03:43PM (#43448093)
> Excuse me? C8 would be right in its place in Moscow, on the contrary. It's a propaganda channel owned by a billionaire FN backer. Cyril Hanouna is basically a Russian TV host that speaks French. The embodiment of bad faith.

What you say may or may not be true, I wouldn't know, I don't watch French TV.

It is, at any rate entirely irrelevant: if that TV channel was advocating that people should tattoo a swastika on their forehead, they still should be allowed to do so, however retarded that is.

That's what free speech means, however horrible and shocking that may be to you. People are free to make up their mind about the channel and not watch it.

The government has strictly no business, in a truly free country, to decide who can and cannot broadcast.

> You can't break the law systematically and then cry about not getting your license renewed.

Why in heaven's name would you even need a license to run a TV channel? Do you need a license to create YouTube videos?

> I really struggle to see how this affects your life in any way.

This tells me you and I likely don't live the same kind of life.

But if you're happy living in a society where every private transaction you make is monitored by your government, hey, what can I say: more power to you, after all, complete and utter surveillance of the plebs is also what happens in Russia. They also likely think it's normal to have your every move monitored over there.

When you've lived your whole life in a prison, you end up not seeing the walls anymore.

I'm personally very happy I don't have to suffer living in a place like France.

> The 1000€ figure is when dealing with professionals, among other reasons to avoid VAT fraud.

Every coercive power there ever was has always had that kind of "won't you think of the children" or "this is for your own protection" bullshit message to wrap their coercion of basic freedoms in a nice package. This is no different.

Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by MITSardine on Saturday March 22, 2025 @04:46PM (#43448479)
I think this is naive regarding propagandists. These TV channels don't "express views", they manipulate and fabricate opinion to serve the interests of their owners (in this case a multi-billionaire industrial family with a far right ideology).

Rather than offer viewpoints, they suppress any constructive discussion and recenter the debate on bogus issues to rile people up and garner votes for populist parties that are friendly to their stakeholders. They are a poison to democracy. The riling up itself also has direct and violent consequences.

In such situations, the freedom of the perpetrators is at odds with the freedom of the victims. There is no solution that prevents a lion eating a gazelle that doesn't involve restraining the lion. As children are taught, "my freedom ends when the freedom of others begins".

I doubt any country in the world allows you to manipulate someone into murder and then walk away with it once the deed is done. Punishing hate speech is that but on a larger scale. I struggle to see the issue, really. The only matter of discussion is the definition of hate speech, but the principle itself is sound and necessary in my opinion (and of the majority of people who welcome that such laws exist).

By the way, you mentioned England in your initial comment, but the UK has similar laws in this regard. Were you thinking of the US as a freer nation? For having lived in both, I'll have to beg to disagree, I've never felt as surveilled as in the US. Private companies store your whole card number and any details you were unfortunate enough to share with a given retailer (such as email address) are shared across nation-wide networks. But it sure is convenient when WholeFoods knows you have an Amazon Prime subscription. Or does it not count when it's private companies, only the government?

Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by ConspiracyFact on Sunday March 23, 2025 @12:13AM (#43450868)
You’re free to have your own beliefs about speech. Please don’t say that you believe in free speech, though.
Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by dopidopHN on Thursday March 27, 2025 @07:43AM (#43492576)
Is libel free speech ?
Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by ConspiracyFact on Saturday March 29, 2025 @04:24AM (#43513786)
It’s not illegal. You can be sued for it but not jailed for it.
Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by immibis on Saturday March 22, 2025 @03:31PM (#43448020)
This is pretty much the same way Americans view America, right? Dead convinced that American freedom of speech is the best in the world, even while people get their permanent residency revoked for making Israel look bad, and other people get denied entry for texting their friend that they aren't the best fan of Trump. It also happens to be the way North Koreans view North Korea (understandable for them, since they're shot if they don't).
Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by Braxton1980 on Friday March 21, 2025 @07:51PM (#43441941)
What key metric and what's your source
Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by kergonath on Friday March 21, 2025 @07:26PM (#43441793)
> France is in decay with incompetent and unpatriotic governments for decades.

What are you on about? What does the "unpatriotic" bit have to do with anything?

> It is facing many issues but has lacked strong leadership courageous enough to put country first.

Right. What would "putting country first" mean? France is doing what it wanted to do for decades, which is consolidating European power to its advantage. Is that what you consider unpatriotic? If so, I have bad news for you: France is a great country, but absolutely does not have the resources for its ambitions on its own.

> If you follow French news you'll see many.

If you follow sources related to reality in any way you’ll see that some things are getting better and some things are getting worse. What does not change is the agitation about safety and security to make people afraid of their own shadow, even as the situation is quite clear: the country is safer than it has ever been.

You have a valid point hidden somewhere, it’s that the people were shortchanged and that inequality is rising. You are badly misguided if you think that this has anything to do with patriotism. In fact, the people pushing this narrative have their own interests to look after in the class struggle. They might make you think that they have the same enemies as the people but they are just looking after their own. Just look at any country in which the local nationalists came to power.

Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by mytailorisrich on Friday March 21, 2025 @08:02PM (#43442007)
Good attempt at caricature or is it humour?
Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by JodieBenitez on Saturday March 22, 2025 @05:23AM (#43444516)
> the situation is quite clear: the country is safer than it has ever been

False.

https://www.interieur.gouv.fr/content/download/135975/107672...

Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by rdm_blackhole on Saturday March 22, 2025 @08:17AM (#43445227)
Crime is under-reported in France because most people know that wasting your time to go to a police station to report a small crime is basically useless as nothing will come out of it.

I have talked about it on this forum. I have had my car broken into multiple times in France, and each time I had to file a police report. Guess how many times the culprits were caught? A big fat zero.

So the statistics look good. But what about the reality? Do you think a women coming home at night is felling safer now than she would have been 30 years ago? I don't think so.

Not too mention the rampant Islamism that has taken over entire suburbs were women are not free to wear what they want and the cops don't go there unless they have the CRS (riot police) with them to protect them in case something goes wrong.

Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by skrebbel on Saturday March 22, 2025 @05:25AM (#43444518)
I found the Front National guy!
Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by achenet on Friday March 21, 2025 @08:58PM (#43442341)
As a Frenchman, this really grinds my gears.

Our state is already one of the biggest arms dealers on the planet, and, like all modern nation states, fundamentally a coercive protection racket (note that I don't actually have a problem with coercive protection rackets. You remember that scene in The Godfather where everyone is thanking Vito Corleone as he saunters through the street? That's me thanking the French welfare state for taking my taxes and giving me universal healthcare and environmental regulation).

Why don't we just get in on the drug trade ourselves, undercut the dealers and start a government monopoly like Sweden has with alcohol?

Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by makeitdouble on Friday March 21, 2025 @10:17PM (#43442674)
> Why don't we just get in on the drug trade ourselves, undercut the dealers

That was tobacco, but they blew it by never going for alternatives nor providing healthier/better products. With the pharma knowledge we have now, we surely could have developed a legally acceptable drug with few enough downsides.

Otherwise, they are of course getting in on the drug trade, just not under the framework we'd want to:

https://www.brut.media/fr/articles/cocaine-11-policiers-juge...

Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by cship2 on Saturday March 22, 2025 @02:41AM (#43444004)
But once it is legal, they can't use it to deal weapons anymore

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_affair

Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by bambax on Saturday March 22, 2025 @02:56AM (#43444064)
The level of math and/or tech understanding in the French political "elite" is abysmal. These people graduated high school, and went on to college without doing any math AT ALL after 10th grade ("seconde"), and probably sucked at math even then.

And they have nothing but contempt for the people who do understand those issues ("les techniciens").

Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by palsecam on Saturday March 22, 2025 @06:25AM (#43444764)
Vladimir Arnol’d (the famous Russian mathematician) touches on that subject in his essay « Sur l’éducation mathématique » <https://smf.emath.fr/system/files/filepdf/Gaz-78-Arnold.pdf> (in French; Arnol’d also taught in France).

According to him, mathematical teaching has become overly abstract, leading to students being disgusted by maths, seeing it as disconnected from reality. Some of these students then end up being ministers… Original quote:

« Comme de telles mathématiques scolastiques, séparées de la physique, ne sont adaptées ni à l’enseignement, ni à aucune application éventuelle à d’autres sciences, les mathématiciens se sont fait haïr des lycéens (dont certains ensuite sont devenus ministres) et des utilisateurs. »

Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by mariusor on Saturday March 22, 2025 @06:25AM (#43444768)
I think most of the people in the "making decisions" business don't really care about how or even if something is possible, they leave it as an exercise in compliance for the "boffins" and "les techniciens".
Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by buybackoff on Saturday March 22, 2025 @06:29AM (#43444783)
France has great engineering tradition. One of the left leaders is PhD in math. As I mentioned, multiple comments by members of National Assembly were quite educated. The problem is with key politicians having perverse incentives and misrepresenting bad things to the less educated public.
Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by rdm_blackhole on Saturday March 22, 2025 @05:00AM (#43444441)
> Freeing France from the drug trafficking trap

This reason just like all the other reasons that have been used to try and strip away every shred of privacy that we have (think of the children, fight terrorism and so on) is complete bogus.

My mom was working as an admin person in a police station in France back in the 90s and from the many conversations she had with the cops, knowledge was never the problem. They already knew back then where all the drug hot spots were but truth be told there has been a lack of enforcement of the law.

Why you ask?

Simple, in most of the suburbs were drug trafficking happens, you have high unemployment, people low education and very few prospects for their future, so it has been said that the government has avoided coming down too hard on drug traffickers because they don't want these areas to erupt in chaos and start rioting.

In a way, the French government has used the drug money to indirectly buy social peace.

If the French government wanted to fight crime and get rid of these drug traffickers, it could simply legalize pot like in Germany and Canada and kill the black market.

Instead, it chooses once again to go after the sellers and the buyers. It makes zero sense because unless you are going to enforce the law by punishing the traffickers with the death penalty like in some countries, we know from all the data of the last 30 years that you cannot stop the flow of drugs.

We can't even keep drugs and cell phones out of jails/prisons, how is it that we think we can keep them out of entire countries?

The solution is simple, you legalize it and tax it and make it hard for kids to get it just like we do today with alcohol and tobacco.

That is the only sensible approach. What do you think the drug cartels fear most? The cops or legalization?

Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B on Saturday March 22, 2025 @09:15AM (#43445496)
It's still true today. A cop friend of mine told me "if you arrest all the drug dealers, the whole city will burn in less than 24 hours."
Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by RegnisGnaw on Saturday March 22, 2025 @12:05PM (#43446706)
You think legalizing pot will solve the problem? Its the harder drugs that's where the money is. No country has legalized hard drugs.
Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by palsecam on Saturday March 22, 2025 @11:14AM (#43446297)
> I'm positively surprised by some deputies remarks.

Not personally surprised, but I agree, they talk sense and understand the matter quite well. Thanks for finding and sharing the debate video, btw!

> Retailleau is either totally incompetent technically, with his advisors as well, or is a liar.

Sadly, gotta agree here too. M. Retailleau seems off the mark. He looks (to me) like he speaking in good faith tho, and that he “just” doesn’t get it.

Nevertheless, he has a point when he mentions Apple and CSAM (Child Sexual Abuse Material). Apple has shown that using homomorphic encryption could be 1) actually practical, and 2) helpful on such matters. Cf. https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/CSAM_Detection_Techni... & https://machinelearning.apple.com/research/homomorphic-encry... & https://repositorio.fgv.br/items/047aca31-ccdc-45bd-a7d3-6c0....

Re:France rejects backdoor mandate by fisian on Saturday March 22, 2025 @12:54PM (#43447028)
Denying math has a tradition among politicians: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Malcolm_Turnbull