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Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by DannyBee on Monday March 10, 2025 @12:48PM (#43322433)
They clarify they mean they think they will regret it historically in the sense of losing that part of history, rather than monetarily, etc.

But to me this is like arguing a swarm of locusts are going to one day regret that they destroyed so many fields of crops.

Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by agentultra on Monday March 10, 2025 @01:47PM (#43323184)
You're right. They might regret it financially if they could plan past their next meal. In the case of locusts it results in their decline.

Music industry has been... not great with licensing and archives. There are recordings of Lightning Hopkins that only exist because of the Smithsonian Archives. And there are re-issues of that music today that only exist because of independent labels sourcing from those archives.

If the music industry had had its way they would have been done with Hopkins years ago and his music would have been forgotten, having moved on to the next crop.

Books are good at republishing. Film has been decent at it but suffer from licensing issues. Video games are probably the worst at archiving and maintaining access to libraries of prior art.

Locusts. Good analogy.

Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by CuriouslyC on Monday March 10, 2025 @03:59PM (#43325311)
In defense of video games, in a lot of cases technology has churned so much that it's prohibitive to maintain older games, and in general besides the 16 bit aesthetic people are so put off by the look of older games they tend not to get as engaged.

AI will improve this situation on the graphics side, perhaps with some sort of game container that emulates older environments well (Proton, anyone?) we'll see more re-releases.

Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by Dylan16807 on Monday March 10, 2025 @04:26PM (#43325672)
Games that old are super easy to archive on a technical level. Take the 4MB or less and save it somewhere.

And "sell small files for $1 or $5 without spending much money to set up the store" is a solved problem.

Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by sitkack on Monday March 10, 2025 @04:39PM (#43325810)
Sorry, but you are just talking. The problem with video game preservation is that the IA isn't able to get the same library exemption that they got from the Library of Congress for archiving. The LoC doesn't yet consider video games an artform that can be preserved in the same way as books and other media.

There are thousands of folks that both want and want to do this work.

Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by ghaff on Tuesday March 11, 2025 @09:12AM (#43332086)
>the same library exemption

Reference please? Genuine question. As far as I know, libraries have very little in the way of special privileges outside of some specific rights in the analog realm which don't really apply in digital where first sale doctrine also doesn't apply.

Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by phonon on Tuesday March 11, 2025 @10:30AM (#43332811)
Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by ghaff on Tuesday March 11, 2025 @10:50AM (#43333010)
I see nothing in there giving a carte blanche to libraries, however they care to define themselves, to have any generalized exemption from copyright law.
Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by PlaneSploit on Tuesday March 11, 2025 @10:44PM (#43339443)
Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by phonon on Tuesday March 11, 2025 @11:51PM (#43339805)
What's with the goalpost moving? Click on "Final Rule"[1] and the PDF goes into copious detail about what exemptions are currently in effect. Obviously there is no, and will never be, "carte blanche to libraries, however they care to define themselves, to have any generalized exemption from copyright law". There are specific, temporary, limited exemptions in effect.

[1] https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2024-10-28/pdf/2024-2...

Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by Majora320 on Monday March 10, 2025 @04:57PM (#43326005)
How does AI have anything to do with this? Are you just talking about emulators? Those already exist, and the main opposition to them is the companies that own the IP. Many companies would rather let games languish than let their community do the "prohibitive" work to maintain those games for free.
Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by the_af on Monday March 10, 2025 @11:02PM (#43328753)
> and in general besides the 16 bit aesthetic people are so put off by the look of older games they tend not to get as engaged.

It's not about what people find pleasing today, it's about archiving and preserving an important part of our (digital) history. Videogames of the past were a big thing.

And videogames, much like music, must be playable to be truly preserved.

Imagine someone going "I don't get why it's worth preserving ancient Egyptian artifacts, people these days don't enjoy that kind of thing anymore".

Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by badsectoracula on Tuesday March 11, 2025 @07:18AM (#43331312)
> in general besides the 16 bit aesthetic people are so put off by the look of older games they tend not to get as engaged.

One of the most prolific indie developers of recent years (David Szymanski) has basically all of his games looking like they came out of PS1/early 3D accelerator days. And he isn't alone, there are many games that have midlate 90s / very early 2000s looks. There are also a ton of horror games that use exaggerated PS1-styled graphics with bit crunched filtering, strong dithering effects, etc (wobbly low poly environments where you can barely make out what you are looking at are giving horror vibes basically for free :-P).

This is something i've been saying for a long time now: if you can point at a game and say "this looks like a PS1/PS2/3/4/5/NES/SNES/DOS/Win95/etc game" then this means there are enough visual characteristics to define such games and thus you are really pointing at a visual style - something that people will use at some point in the future even when the technical limitations that birthed the style aren't there anymore (which means that some games may give the feel of that style but not really be bound by the actual limitations).

Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by ysofunny on Monday March 10, 2025 @08:40PM (#43327929)
shout out for the house of the underdogs!

anybody else remember abandonware games??

Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by the_af on Monday March 10, 2025 @10:58PM (#43328726)
Home of the Underdogs, or HOTU.

I was active in their forums back in 2004. I still remember all the fuss when the admin/owner (going by nickname Underdogs) was "outed" to be a woman (she helped out herself, it wasn't a hostile thing). 2004 was a time when people could still be surprised that a woman was leading a major online project... wow. The past is indeed "a foreign country"!

Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by agentultra on Tuesday March 11, 2025 @08:38AM (#43331836)
Pepper Ridge Farms remembers.
Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by cheeseomlit on Monday March 10, 2025 @01:02PM (#43322565)
Exactly, classic case of anthropomorphising a lawnmower. A thought like this would never occur to a record label exec
Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by racl101 on Monday March 10, 2025 @01:14PM (#43322709)
Highly doubt it. Seems far fetched for a soulless entity to care.
Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by dylan604 on Monday March 10, 2025 @01:00PM (#43322541)
Doesn't the use of the word regret imply that they care?
Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by quuxplusone on Monday March 10, 2025 @04:41PM (#43325844)
Right, OP is saying (and I came here to agree) that the writer's use of the word "regret" was just clickbait — there's no actual regret predicted to take place except to music historians and the few ordinary people who know what they missed out on. Even the historian quoted says he's using the word "regret" metaphorically:

> "They're going to regret it," Seubert predicted. "Not financially or anything, but just from a historical perspective."

Music execs are in the business of selling music. The less music is available in the wild, the better for them.

Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by wmil on Monday March 10, 2025 @04:51PM (#43325929)
My favourite example of this is that for Babylon 5 the lawyers from Warner Bros insisted that the showrunners not retain any copies of the digital models because they were WB property and WB would archive them.

When they started working on B5 The Lost Tales, WB had lost all of the digital files.

Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by quitit on Monday March 10, 2025 @05:56PM (#43326559)
This is also a common side effect of corporate policies that favour short term profits rather than retaining staff for the long term.

I see this scenario play out constantly:

1. A team or staff member has a project's data located on their user account or hardware.

2. The team or staff member are made redundant when there is a dip in earnings.

3. IT make a backup of the user account/s and wipe the hardware, and because it's older usually move it on.

4. Months or years later that data is needed and at this point no one at the company actually knows where the data is - and even if they find something, they don't know if that's the latest or the full version.

Now this wouldn't be a problem if there was a decent overlap in staff retention, but that simply isn't the case these days.

Writing better storage policies doesn't help - it's the understaffed nature of their businesses which mean that there is no time for staff to keep up with basic data housekeeping.

The types of data that clients should have on hand, but nevertheless have asked me to supply, are frankly embarrassing.

Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by NERD_ALERT on Monday March 10, 2025 @06:31PM (#43326870)
What company is allowing employees to have so much data locally? Almost all work is stored in a cloud now. Documents, spreadsheets, design docs, code… If you really are constantly seeing this then that says a lot about the corporation using severely outdated practices.
Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by LoganDark on Monday March 10, 2025 @06:53PM (#43327058)
> If you really are constantly seeing this then that says a lot about the corporation using severely outdated practices.

They probably just used now-outdated practices before those practices were outdated. This happened in the past, remember. Sure, the cloud is a thing today, but was the cloud such a thing 5, 10, 20 years ago? Do you really think it's their fault for not knowing in advance how much of a thing the cloud would one day become? Oh, how outdated. Sheesh.

Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by dgfitz on Monday March 10, 2025 @07:35PM (#43327454)
Nope. I’ll not list off all the DVCS implementations that existed 20 years ago, you should look it up. That is not an excuse.
Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by codetrotter on Monday March 10, 2025 @08:36PM (#43327903)
Ah yes, git and mercurial – the perfect place to save 3TB of binary data that changes weekly.
Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by LoganDark on Monday March 10, 2025 @11:47PM (#43328975)
You know tech savvy was not really a thing back then for the everyday uneducated person, right? You kind of had to have been a geek to have known this stuff. There are a number of dead-simple cloud solutions today, but you cannot just scold, say, WB for not using a company cloud back in checks Wikipedia 1993!
Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by mulmen on Tuesday March 11, 2025 @12:54PM (#43334494)
Ok but preserving media seems like a thing Warner Brothers should be really good at. Why did Warner Brothers have an everyday uneducated person in charge of archival?
Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by LoganDark on Tuesday March 11, 2025 @02:59PM (#43335867)
Why would an archivist back then happen to know computers that intimately? I'd be surprised if the average archivist knew much more than how to do data entry... and I wouldn't even hold it against them if they happened not to know how to do data entry.
Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by mulmen on Wednesday March 12, 2025 @01:08AM (#43340127)
You don't need to be an expert in the technology to ask a few relevant questions like "where is the information stored?" and "what temperature and humidity does it prefer?" Of course WB is famously bad at storing film too so maybe I shouldn't be surprised.
Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by mulmen on Tuesday March 11, 2025 @12:58PM (#43334558)
20 years ago is 7 years after the show ended. I looked it up.
Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by thaumasiotes on Monday March 10, 2025 @08:21PM (#43327797)
> Sure, the cloud is a thing today, but was the cloud such a thing 5, 10, 20 years ago?

Yes, yes, and no.

For example, https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/908:_The_Cloud is from 2011.

Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by LoganDark on Monday March 10, 2025 @11:44PM (#43328960)
The Onion also made some pretty good cloud parodies back in 2012: https://youtu.be/9ntPxdWAWq8

Old animation though I wouldn't necessarily expect to only have been 10 years ago, and 10 years ago I wouldn't expect to be scolded for not using the cloud.

Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by soco on Tuesday March 11, 2025 @04:44AM (#43330433)
I would think policies should also be updated every X years in light of new regulations, new possibilities, new limitations... but who enjoys policies and even updating them? So here we are, everything done "by the book" and losing data because of that.
Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by lazyasciiart on Monday March 10, 2025 @10:18PM (#43328499)
> located on their user account or hardware

Clouds have user accounts too. I have seen dead links to documents in a former employees space on sharepoint, confluence, and google docs.

Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by cogman10 on Tuesday March 11, 2025 @03:46PM (#43336325)
Exactly. In fact, I still regularly get sharepoint "request for access" notifications in my email for some presentation I did a year ago. Even though I swear I've opened it up to the entire org.

Who knows what happens when I've shuffled away from my current company.

Dead links are also incredibly common, particularly because we are on our nth port from sharepoint to confluence to whatever back to sharepoint. Generally, because C levels don't want to pay for this year's price hike.

Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by lrem on Tuesday March 11, 2025 @02:25AM (#43329710)
Why locally? In practice many companies never lose any data. What they lose is the knowledge what the data is and/or how to use it.
Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by windward on Tuesday March 11, 2025 @05:07AM (#43330592)
Any company where you're not allowed to force-push to a public branch.
Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by mattl on Tuesday March 11, 2025 @10:09AM (#43332602)
Local git repo checkouts?
Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by sarlalian on Saturday March 15, 2025 @11:07PM (#43376689)
Well, the typical setup with OneDrive in MS365, is that the overworked manager get’s an email when an employee account is deactivated. The manager has 90 days to search through their OneDrive and copy anything out that they think is needed, possibly to the central SharePoint or to their own OneDrive. I’m sure there are similar policies and procedures in place for enterprise dropbox, box.net, and Google Drive. So typically employee leaves and the manager never gets around to copying data out, 6-9 months later they need something that employee had, and yell at IT to recover it. IT laughs and laughs and then cries.
Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by btrettel on Monday March 10, 2025 @10:11PM (#43328455)
There's been discussion on HN of "smuggling" the lost information back into the organization: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42235452
Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by lizard on Monday March 10, 2025 @10:32PM (#43328585)
When I get frustrated enough to consider putting a kill switch in my work, I cool off by reminding myself that would prompt them to make a huge effort recovering from backups and have someone go through my code to get it working again. If I just do what they ask me instead, it will slowly decay without anyone having any idea what it even does, until its too late to fix or recover anything.
Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by walterbell on Monday March 10, 2025 @05:18PM (#43326212)
It's sad when requests to official and unofficial archives are lost.
Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by yapyap on Monday March 10, 2025 @04:58PM (#43326007)
Truly and authentically lost tales
Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by 7thaccount on Monday March 10, 2025 @09:49PM (#43328318)
Someone also redid all the ships from scratch I think in modern software and has to get rid of it due to WB.

I still think B5 ships are some of the best in all of Scifi.

Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by ndsipa_pomu on Tuesday March 11, 2025 @06:10AM (#43330923)
I'm a big fan of the Vorlon ships, but I think The Expanse has the best space battles.

(I also like the Lexx spaceship, though the series was somewhat of a mess)

Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by 7thaccount on Tuesday March 11, 2025 @12:07PM (#43333882)
Expanse battles were far more realistic of course. The B5 Star Fury combat scenes were pretty ground breaking for the time though.

Expanse ships (at least where I'm at in the book series and show - kind of early) are a lot closer to current human tech of course. In B5 humanity had tech that was mostly believable (still used rotating mass for gravity), but you got to see some very unique looking ships from the other species like the Minbari and Shadows that truly looked alien and unsettling.

Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by ndsipa_pomu on Tuesday March 11, 2025 @12:09PM (#43333910)
Back in the day, I was proud of how they'd used Amigas to render the B5 graphics as I also was an Amiga user.
Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by 09thn34v on Tuesday March 11, 2025 @05:22AM (#43330670)
first hn comment i've ever laughed at. lmao. well said
Re:Music labels will regret coming for the Internet Archive,... by kjellsbells on Tuesday March 11, 2025 @10:19AM (#43332703)
There are three types of loss: destruction, discoverability, and synthesis.

Destruction is the one most people think of. The last tape is destroyed, or someone nukes everything in S3. Policies normally save this from happening, bit not always. (I note that lawyers are pretty good at saving things because of discovery, so perhaps corporations should sue themselves more often /s)

Discoverability is when the data is there, but noone knows where it is. This is your classic corpo Sharepoint/teams/slack problem. There was a chat, once, with some shared files, from their onedrive, but the last person who remembered where was laid off a year ago and...well, that data is effectively lost. I dont think we have great solutions here except writing even more things down and hoping that everyone follows rules like keeping all files in one place

The last case is where the data is located, but noone can vouch for it any more. Internal wiki pages are notorious here. People post about, say, some sharp edge they uncovered, and the page sits there for all eternity. You discover it years later. Can you trust it? Is there anyone who knows why the page still exists? It blocks the synthesis of what you know with what the author knew.