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Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by insane_dreamer on Monday February 10, 2025 @07:03PM (#43006998)
It's the perception of safety.

If DOGE was really about efficiency and cutting waste, TSA would be the first place they would be looking.

Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by xp84 on Monday February 10, 2025 @07:08PM (#43007055)
I wouldn't assume that isn't going to happen. I've heard specifically that someone in the Trump camp wants to just have the airlines figure security out themselves.
Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by roenxi on Monday February 10, 2025 @08:45PM (#43008006)
One optomistic point is that a lot of stupid things persist because whoever gets rid of them would have to deal with a bad image. TSA is of that style; the other political party would almost be guaranteed to scream in cynical fashion that it is making people less safe.

But it isn't obvious the Trump administration would have to worry about that. They've already saturated the screaming. There isn't anything worse to call them than Nazis and there are a couple of years of the administration left. We can hope someone thinks to tidy the TSA up.

Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by xp84 on Monday February 10, 2025 @11:27PM (#43008969)
Exactly. I think some of the things in Trump/Musk’s crosshairs are legitimately a waste of money and focus, and if worth having, would be better controlled by the more accountable state level. Some, like CFPB, are obviously much better off not being deleted, but tbh the things anyone can make a convincing case for, can just be reestablished later, without the sprawling cruft they’ve accumulated in 25-90 years of existence.

I do wish it was someone smarter doing this, but only a President already hated by all the elites could do this degree of upheaval and get away with it.

Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by error_logic on Monday February 10, 2025 @11:47PM (#43009080)
If you think Trump is actually in charge when he's signing all those executive orders being handed to him and--

Anyway, he's not the real power, here.

Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by rayiner on Monday February 10, 2025 @10:55PM (#43008764)
TSA and DOD. One can dream.
Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by bdangubic on Monday February 10, 2025 @07:06PM (#43007038)
too young to remember 9/11? :)
Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by insane_dreamer on Monday February 10, 2025 @07:27PM (#43007247)
I was 30 years old, saw it live on TV. So ... no

But as others have pointed out, a lot of the TSA processes (taking off shoes, laptops, liquids, etc.) are pointless.

What prevents another 9/11 are the cockpit doors, which have nothing to do with TSA.

Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by bdangubic on Monday February 10, 2025 @07:46PM (#43007440)
the shoes, the tooth paste, the water… are all necessary security theatre. the real work is happening behind the scenes. but the theatre is also necessary (albeit not as dramatic as we have it now :) )
Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by insane_dreamer on Monday February 10, 2025 @07:50PM (#43007490)
how is the theatre also necessary?
Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by bdangubic on Monday February 10, 2025 @07:57PM (#43007570)
it is necessary so that some Adam Lanza-wannabe doesn’t get any ideas on how to quickly become infamous
Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by cogman10 on Monday February 10, 2025 @08:15PM (#43007735)
The school shooters do that because it's shocking and gets in the news. We have so many crowded situations throughout the world where an equal splash could be made.

We need about as much security around the airport as we need around a subway or a concert.

After the dark knight shooting, we didn't find the need to put up xray scanners in every movie theater. It's dumb to do that with airports.

Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by bdangubic on Monday February 10, 2025 @08:31PM (#43007881)
We need about as much security around the airport as we need around a subway or a concert.

as soon as we have 2.7 million people in subway and/or concert daily in the US you'd be right... until then...

Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by cogman10 on Monday February 10, 2025 @08:34PM (#43007908)
NYC has 3.6 million daily riders. So guess I'm right.
Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by bdangubic on Monday February 10, 2025 @08:57PM (#43008089)
NYC is an island... doing shit on the NYC subway disrupts bunch of people living on a (largely populated) island. doing shit on airplanes causes country-wide (and beyond) issues.
Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by cogman10 on Monday February 10, 2025 @09:15PM (#43008202)
> doing shit on airplanes causes country-wide (and beyond) issues.

Like what?

In the absolute worst case it grounds flights nation wide and 100 people die. In the grand scheme of things that's a minor hiccup and not a likely outcome. We saw a bigger impact from the polar vortex.

The security simply doesn't match the value.

I'll remind you that 70 people died from an airplane accident. Tragic, but we were hardly impacted by it. When you talk about 2.7 million flyers, the impact of a few hundred dying a year still makes it one of the safest forms of travel.

Airplanes aren't special and shouldn't have the annoying special security treatment they do today.

Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by bdangubic on Monday February 10, 2025 @11:09PM (#43008852)
if few hundred died per year that number 2.7 would not be millions but maybe hundreds :)
Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by cogman10 on Monday February 10, 2025 @11:25PM (#43008954)
A few hundred do die per year. In 2023 it was 327.
Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by saagarjha on Tuesday February 11, 2025 @05:28AM (#43011147)
You do realize where the twin towers were, right?
Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by Lammy on Monday February 10, 2025 @08:31PM (#43007879)
Security theater guarantees a giant line of people right in the front where that crowd is most easily accessible instead of at the back if those people could go straight to their gates. I would rather see news media stop making every one of those people infamous so it ceases to be a way to get a bunch of attention.
Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by bdangubic on Monday February 10, 2025 @08:41PM (#43007973)
I would rather see news media stop making every one of those people infamous so it ceases to be a way to get a bunch of attention.

amen! but we know that ain't happening

Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by sealeck on Monday February 10, 2025 @08:49PM (#43008041)
That's like imagining school shooters won't get an AR-15 and do a school shooting because you put an otherwise unarmed guy with a baton by the front gate.
Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by jghn on Wednesday February 12, 2025 @02:43PM (#43028979)
It's "necessary" because the TSA is largely just a jobs program, albeit one that is palatable to the median American.
Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by Spooky23 on Monday February 10, 2025 @08:29PM (#43007857)
I’m sure the dude with the Sawzall will find that funny.
Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by extraduder_ire on Monday February 10, 2025 @08:38PM (#43007941)
I think locked cockpit doors pale in comparison to the average airline passenger knowing it's a possibility.
Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by colonial on Monday February 10, 2025 @09:18PM (#43008222)
This is exactly right. Before 9/11, hijackings weren't unheard of, but they were almost universally political stunts with some "hostage situation" to taste [1]. As a passenger, if you just played along, your odds of getting hurt were quite low.

Nowadays, any would-be hijacker is going to get immediately dogpiled and beat within an inch of their lives before they ever reach first class.

[1]: https://www.vox.com/2016/3/29/11326472/hijacking-airplanes-e...

Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by dmoy on Monday February 10, 2025 @09:30PM (#43008297)
Alternatively: if you flew Southwest prior to 9/11, other passengers would absolutely murder you if you threatened to go in the cockpit.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest_Airlines_Flight_17...

Post 9/11 everyone else just caught up (except minus the actually killing the person), see e.g. the shoe bomber guy.

Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by SilasX on Monday February 10, 2025 @11:02PM (#43008807)
>Before 9/11, hijackings weren't unheard of, but they were almost universally political stunts with some "hostage situation" to taste [1]. As a passenger, if you just played along, your odds of getting hurt were quite low.

Yeah. So much that, on the morning of 9/11, when a student in my college class was announcing there was a hijacking, I remember wanting to shout “Who cares? Those happen all the time and it gets resolved![1] Why is this a priority?”

… until he got to the part about it crashing into the WTC.

[1] Which, of course, still would have been out of line to say, but I was unusually cranky and didn’t get why that would be something to stop everything over.

Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by scarface_74 on Monday February 10, 2025 @10:08PM (#43008490)
With the newer scanners, you don’t have to take laptops out even without TSA pre check from what I have read. We have TSA Precheck so I can’t verify it.

I do know flying from Los Cabos Mexico where TSA doesn’t matter, I didn’t have to remove my laptop a couple of years ago

Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by BobaFloutist on Monday February 10, 2025 @11:11PM (#43008866)
The other thing that prevents another 9/11 is the first 9/11.

Before 9/11, airplane hijackers were like bank robbers: idiots trying to get some cash. If you just followed their orders, everyone would mostly get out alive.

Even mid-9/11, when it became clear that the hijackers were using the planes to attack civilians (at the necessary cost of the lives of the passengers), people stopped cooperating and stopped the final plane from reaching its target.

Even if someone walked into the cockpit with a gun they'd get nothing for their trouble but an immediate nosedive as the pilot sacrificed the plane to protect whatever the intended target was.

Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by NhanH on Monday February 10, 2025 @11:28PM (#43008977)
For the situation where the hijacker can actually control the plane, I'd imagine the US military now has a more proper response and will be able to scramble jet in time to shoot down the plane (they didn't have such plan for domestic situation in 2001).
Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by SoftTalker on Monday February 10, 2025 @11:28PM (#43008976)
The nosedive would also throw the hijacker up to the ceiling and/or backwards with a good chance of knocking him out or at least giving him a nasty concussion.
Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by insane_dreamer on Tuesday February 11, 2025 @10:40AM (#43014069)
also, before 9/11 many airplane hijackers were also political protests (PLO, Cuba, etc.) where the goal was _not_ to kill anyone, not terrorists intent on killing as many people as possible
Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by njarboe on Monday February 10, 2025 @11:15PM (#43008895)
Cockpit doors and the fact that just letting hijackers do what they want is no longer acceptable to Americans. We solved the hijacking problem about 60 minutes after the first plane hit the twin towers. Flight 93 is proof of that.
Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by johnnyanmac on Monday February 10, 2025 @11:33PM (#43009000)
Given how polarized the US has gotten: I wonder how much we regressed in 23 years and if modern people would do the same thing.
Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by ksenzee on Monday February 10, 2025 @11:42PM (#43009050)
It’s a good question. If you filled a flight with as many attackers as you could get tickets for, would the remaining seats have enough people willing and able to fight back? I’ll admit I’m glad they lock the cockpit doors.
Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by llm_trw on Monday February 10, 2025 @07:26PM (#43007241)
The summer of 9/11 I brought on a full suit of hoplite armor with shield and spear on board a regional plane. The stewardess told me I can't have it in the passenger compartment so I should just give it to the pilot before takeoff.

I'm not saying that we should let people board in full armor again, but surely there is a happy medium?

Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by oceanplexian on Monday February 10, 2025 @07:35PM (#43007334)
I have vivid memories from childhood hugging my grandma before flying right at the gate. Unfortunately people have a short memory. Kids these days will have no memory of how free of a country we lived in even 25 years ago.
Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by selectodude on Monday February 10, 2025 @09:29PM (#43008293)
On the contrary, not having to hang out with somebody at the airport before they leave is such a gift.
Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by scarface_74 on Tuesday February 11, 2025 @12:51AM (#43009417)
Buy a refundable ticket, go through security, cancel ticket.

People do it all of the time for other reasons.

Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by saagarjha on Tuesday February 11, 2025 @05:29AM (#43011164)
I’d rather we could have nice things.
Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by scarface_74 on Tuesday February 11, 2025 @09:03AM (#43012811)
And the airport is already crowded. The last thing we need are people not even flying anywhere.
Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by saagarjha on Wednesday February 12, 2025 @05:19AM (#43023855)
They'd be less crowded if you didn't have to show up 3 hours early
Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by scarface_74 on Wednesday February 12, 2025 @08:18AM (#43025110)
So now are we saying that there should be no security? Do you not remember when there was literally an average of one hijacking per day?
Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by bee_rider on Monday February 10, 2025 @07:32PM (#43007310)
You just didn’t know there was a Sky Legionnaire up there ready to mess you up if you started anything.
Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by dmitrygr on Monday February 10, 2025 @07:18PM (#43007168)
> too young to remember 9/11? :)

Too lazy to read the many GAO reports that all demonstrate TSA accuracy at finding dangerous items never topping 5%?

Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by bdangubic on Monday February 10, 2025 @07:24PM (#43007219)
sure, that is why we have all these on-board incidents and terrorist attacks crashing airplanes left and right with millions of people flying daily :)
Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by sosborn on Monday February 10, 2025 @07:59PM (#43007588)
How regularly was that happening pre-911?
Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by cogman10 on Monday February 10, 2025 @08:20PM (#43007782)
We'd see a plane hijack roughly once per year. Though it wasn't common for the hijacker to try and kill everyone on board.
Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by bdangubic on Monday February 10, 2025 @08:33PM (#43007896)
about once per year but it makes no difference what happened pre 9/11 - it matters what we did to ensure that 9/11 doesn't happen again
Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by insane_dreamer on Monday February 10, 2025 @09:06PM (#43008150)
Lots in the 70s but by the 90s it was very infrequent in the US. And most hijackings did not result in casualties (or very few casualties). People didn’t hijack with intent to kill the selves and everyone on board. Probably more people died from the shooting down of planes by militaries than by hijackings.
Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by Lammy on Monday February 10, 2025 @08:33PM (#43007897)
Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by AdieuToLogic on Monday February 10, 2025 @09:58PM (#43008434)
> If DOGE was really about efficiency and cutting waste, TSA would be the first place they would be looking.

If DOGE was a real agency, maybe it would.

Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by kube-system on Monday February 10, 2025 @11:15PM (#43008886)
>It's the perception of safety.

You say that as a dig, but a perception of safety is a real deterrent. If you can make your adversaries believe something is true, it doesn't matter whether it actually is or not. This is sometimes known as a bluff.

Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by ksenzee on Monday February 10, 2025 @11:18PM (#43008913)
Anyone who is serious about breaching security at an airport can figure out within half an hour that it’s security theater.
Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by kube-system on Monday February 10, 2025 @11:24PM (#43008947)
Nobody has replicated 9/11, and to my knowledge, nobody has tried. If it's so easy to do so, then the perception of safety must be working great!

To be effective, safety measures don't have to block people who are smart and wouldn't commit the crime anyway. They only have to block the people dumb enough to do it.

Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by ksenzee on Monday February 10, 2025 @11:39PM (#43009029)
Nobody has replicated 9/11 because as soon as the passengers figured out the new threat model, there was no chance of getting away with it. Flight 93 figured it out before 9/11 was even over. The locked cockpit doors are the suspenders to the “let’s roll” belt. There will be no new 9/11 until 9/11 falls out of living memory.
Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by kube-system on Monday February 10, 2025 @11:52PM (#43009109)
That idea is also a perception of safety. No team of hijackers has attempted to take over a plane post 9/11.

If TSA is just theater, couldn't an attacker simply bring weapons sufficient enough to hold off the crowd and break the door? The hijackers on 93 only had box cutters.

It is the combined perception of airport security and the perception that passengers will fight that deter bad actors from even trying.

Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by insane_dreamer on Tuesday February 11, 2025 @10:42AM (#43014100)
It's the cockpit doors that prevent another 9/11, and those have nothing to do with TSA. Even if you could bring box cutters onto the plane you wouldn't be able to take it over. Plus, like you said, awareness among passengers. That also has nothing to do with TSA.
Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by kube-system on Tuesday February 11, 2025 @12:53PM (#43015827)
There are others in the this comment section saying it is easy to take a gun through TSA. If that is true, why would an attacker want to bring another box cutter? If the TSA is ineffective, couldn't someone bring a tool to break the cockpit door?

My point is that none of these things have to be impenetrable. There is a swiss-cheese model to safety. TSA doesn't have to be 100% effective to be effective. Every layer of security adds up. There is no single component responsible for all airline security, not even the cockpit doors.

Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by adgjlsfhk1 on Tuesday February 11, 2025 @12:47AM (#43009398)
No tigers have broken into my home since I put up a metal detector on my front door either.
Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by kube-system on Tuesday February 11, 2025 @01:13AM (#43009559)
If tigers were breaking in before, then it looks like you scared them away. [0]

I'm guessing they weren't though, in which case this is a false equivalency. People did hijack airplanes prior to (and during) 9/11

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_scarer

Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by adgjlsfhk1 on Tuesday February 11, 2025 @01:27AM (#43009637)
So there's three problems with the argument for TSA: 1. We did a lot of things in response to 9/11 (e.g. locking cockpit doors, TSA, increasing awareness). It's unclear whether TSA was a component that helped.

2. In the modern world, it's unclear whether hijacking is a severe risk to planes (compared to drones or missiles which are way more acquirable by terrorists and civilians than they were 25 years ago)

3. TSA has a documented and repeated ~80% failure rate at detecting threats. To the extent security theater is effective, you would expect that that effectiveness would disappear once everyone knew that they most likely wouldn't stop the attack.

Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by kube-system on Tuesday February 11, 2025 @01:44AM (#43009731)
> TSA has a documented and repeated ~80% failure rate at detecting threats. To the extent security theater is effective, you would expect that that effectiveness would disappear once everyone knew that they most likely wouldn't stop the attack.

Well, if we caught 20% of threats across the 19 hijackers on 9/11, there would have been a 99% chance one was caught. And a 67% chance that someone was caught in each group for each of the first 3 planes with 5 hijackers.

But even if they do miss 80% of the failures in penetration tests, what actually matters is whether or not real world threats are being caught. Threat actors in the real world act with different motivations than penetration testers, and with different skill sets.

Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by Toutouxc on Tuesday February 11, 2025 @08:06AM (#43012305)
What do you mean by that? And how acquainted are you actually with airport security?

I have a family member who works at a (European) airport in an administrative position, and apparently the security culture is quite deep and, I dunno, it sounds reasonable? As in, employees have clearances and passes to enter the more restricted areas (and they go through their own security points), the airport generally knows where the employees are and why they're there, the public areas have guards and many cameras and even the layouts of the stores and booths are subject to many security rules regarding materials and even stuff like camera sightlines.

Re:Why hasn't commercial air travel gotten any faster since ... by mullingitover on Tuesday February 11, 2025 @12:17AM (#43009240)
> If DOGE was really about efficiency and cutting waste

...they would've nixed Trump's trip to the Super Bowl, which cost taxpayers 15-20 million all for him to leave early when his team lost.

They wouldn't be killing the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, which costs taxpayers nothing (it's funded by the big banks, aka The Federal Reserve).

The direction they seem to be going, they'll probably increase the TSA budget, add an extra hour to security lines, and make you take your pants off for some reason.