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Re:.mail app by astral303 on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @01:27PM (#4291988)
Best of luck w/ the implementation. However, reading the concept, I am unimpressed.

In Mail.app, I can already mark e-mails with different-colored flags, which allows me to come up with my own "get back soon" or "get back later" type of a system.

The assertion that e-mail hasn't changed since 1970's is false. Modern e-mail clients manage it much better. Compare Mail.app, Outlook and GMail to PINE--the difference is staggering. The true innovator in the e-mail space has been GMail, which has brought things like autosave, concepts such as embracing the fact that it is not truly productive to file every single e-mail into a purposeful folder, embracing that tagging is better than folders. GMail also really pushed the conversational view and presented it in a single-screen way that was innovative (compare how long it took e-mail clients to catch up with that... and no, "group by thread" did not compare).

I'm also very wary of anyone advertising "clean typography." People start adding spacing and now I only end up previewing 2/3rds of what I could preview in one screenful.

Re:.mail app by neya on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @02:24PM (#4292265)
Everything you say is very valid, and I whole-heartedly agree with you. In fact, the designer of this app truly doesn't understand the philosophy of choosing colors.

Being minimalistic is a bad idea when you don't know what you're doing. For example, there are reasons why a link is in blue and 'call-to-action' buttons are in red (like the 'Compose' button, as in Gmail). The purpose of red is to let the user know its something 'important'. The designer of this app in question chooses to ignore these UX concepts and seems to choose beauty and aesthetics over these fundamentals and over-uses the red color (even his navbar is in full red..duh). And that's truly a bad sign for someone wanting to show themselves/their products as professional, especially when the selling point IS the UX.

Re:.mail app by samstave on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @03:32PM (#4292608)
Just off the top of my head you know what I would like to see as an email interface: Reddit.

Each headline being the suvject being an email with all the comments being the replies. Different users can reply in a threaded way to all the recipients of the message etc.

Obviously it would need in-line attachements and in-line pictures.

It would be interesting to allow a vote system on messages. Rather than file them, you down or up vote them. But in your box, you have more than one vote so you can apply more or less weight to info. Along with tags and groups and many other things that I can think of...

That would be cool.

Re:.mail app by jpdelatorre on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @08:59PM (#4293865)
Google Wave tried to fix that problem but with the radical change in the way we use email, it failed.
Re:.mail app by jiggy2011 on Thursday July 26, 2012 @07:07AM (#4295394)
I think wave failed more because the UI was horrible and of course it was linked to Gmail rather than being usable with exchange/other mail systems.

If you had some sort of standard with various different native clients, then it might work.

Re:.mail app by gokhan on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @03:49PM (#4292678)
> Each headline being the suvject being an email with all the comments being the replies.

As in Gmail?

Re:.mail app by samstave on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @04:05PM (#4292750)
Do you use reddit?

As cookingrobot says, gmails threading is one dimensional and super clunky when you have lots of replies. It auto collapses to far so you can't easily reply to a particular message in the thread.

Reddit has the best comment threading system of any site online. Quora is near the worst. HN is just slightly frustrating.

Re:.mail app by Kiro on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @04:16PM (#4292798)
I thought reddit and HN were using the same system. What's the difference?
Re:.mail app by Samuel_Michon on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @04:33PM (#4292864)
Hacker News is written in Arc, a dialect of Lisp: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arc_(programming_language)

Reddit used be written in Lisp, but they switched to Python early on: http://blog.reddit.com/2005/12/on-lisp.html

I do agree that they look alike, Hacker News was inspired by Reddit.

Re:.mail app by sp332 on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @05:44PM (#4293248)
Not the same exact software, just the same way of representing comment threads.
Re:.mail app by andrewflnr on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @07:16PM (#4293564)
Collapsing threads, for one thing.
Re:.mail app by wisty on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @09:55PM (#4294007)
It's like, one line of javascript different (the equivalent of if score < threshold: thread.collapse())
Re:.mail app by andrewflnr on Thursday July 26, 2012 @09:31AM (#4295847)
I don't care about the code. Collapsing is a significant change in UX.
Re:.mail app by samstave on Saturday July 28, 2012 @06:03PM (#4306655)
EXACTLY!

No one seems to get this, not HN, not Quora, Digg (though that doesn't matter any longer...)

Its about increasing the information consumption rate and navigation rate. Collapsing is critical to navigating threads with thousands of comments, even tens of comments!

Any UX designer who does not see this, is, in my book, worthless.

Re:.mail app by shock3naw on Thursday July 26, 2012 @08:34AM (#4295654)
Inspect the source for both sites. I have to admit, I felt a little nauseous when I first read HN's markup & styling.
Re:.mail app by cookingrobot on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @03:56PM (#4292704)
But when you open a message with lots of replies, there's no structure, and you can't reply to one person's comment (like I'm replying to your comment here). This would be messy in gmail.
Re:.mail app by pyre on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @04:03PM (#4292738)

  > you can't reply to one person's comment
You can, but it doesn't maintain proper threading. It just groups them all together and sorts by date.
Re:.mail app by Kerrick on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @04:06PM (#4292757)
As in Google Groups?
Re:.mail app by samstave on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @04:18PM (#4292803)
You think that google groups is an analogous email client?
Re:.mail app by Kerrick on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @05:47PM (#4293262)
No, but Google Groups brings the innovations mentioned above to email lists, so it's an analogous comparison.
Re:.mail app by leif on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @09:01PM (#4293869)
voting aside (which I'm not convinced belongs in email), what is the difference between reddit's comment system and the threading algorithm used by muas like pine?
Re:.mail app by irahul on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @01:47PM (#4292078)
> concepts such as embracing the fact that it is not truly productive to file every single e-mail into a purposeful folder, embracing that tagging is better than folders.

I don't know if it was there from the beginning, but I have always used rules which say "apply filter and skip inbox" effectively giving me separate folders. To each his own; I don't like kitchen-sink inbox, and like separate folders to just tagging.

Re:.mail app by pyre on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @04:12PM (#4292786)
The issue with Gmail is that you can't affect the order in which the filters are applied.

For example: A error email gets sent to a development mailing list. Normally I tag all of the mailing list emails, and skip the inbox.

- What if I want the error email to stay in my inbox, but only if it's an error email?

- What if I want that email to get tagged as "ERRORS" and "DEV_LIST" and skip the Inbox?

I have to do weird filters like:

  filter #1 - if list:DEV_LIST and not subject:ERROR
              then tag w/ DEV_LIST and skip Inbox
  filter #2 - if list:DEV_LIST and subject:ERROR
              then tag w/ DEV_LIST and tag w/ ERROR
or:

  filter #1 - if list:DEV_LIST and not subject:ERROR
              then tag w/ DEV_LIST and skip Inbox
  filter #2 - if list:DEV_LIST and subject:ERROR
              then tag w/ DEV_LIST and tag w/ ERROR and skip Inbox
As you can imagine that these can get quite unwieldy.
Re:.mail app by mike-cardwell on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @05:07PM (#4293051)
I don't use GMail so I've never come across their filtering before, but that looks crap. Sieve is much more flexible. And they could have also implemented ManageSieve so people with mail clients which support the protocol could configure their filtering rules directly from their mta.
Re:.mail app by nailer on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @02:58PM (#4292419)
Sure, re: skipping inbox, me too.

But tagging allows you to have a folder-like appearance but removes to 1:1 relationship. I can have a folder of 'emails sent to me specifically' and an 'emails from my accountant' that happens to have the same message. This is super useful.

Re:.mail app by jfb on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @03:18PM (#4292520)
GMail freed us from the tyranny of trying to build a single ontology for organizing email. To me it's the most radical and admirable thing Google has done by some measure. I would very much like to see this approach applied to other areas of HCI. The fewer flawed assumptions baked into semantics, te better.
Re:.mail app by hboon on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @11:58PM (#4294343)
Tagging also existed in Opera's email client as virtual folders, back when it was known as M2.
Re:.mail app by chmike on Thursday July 26, 2012 @02:11AM (#4294661)
And zimbra
Re:.mail app by charltones on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @03:25PM (#4292566)
This is a great feature but is older than GMail. Lotus Notes mail for instance allowed the same mail to appear in different views, including an "all documents" view that had, as you might expect, everything in it. This advance was rather let down by the rest of the Notes client interface however: http://hallofshame.gp.co.at/lotus.htm
Re:.mail app by drumdance on Thursday July 26, 2012 @12:41AM (#4294436)
Wow, blast from the past. My first serious use of email was Lotus Notes. It had some really cool features but also really strange ones, such as using the escape key to send a message.
Re:.mail app by reddiric on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @02:23PM (#4292261)
> The true innovator in the e-mail space has been GMail, which has brought things like autosave,

Small nit, Outlook 2003 had AutoSave. GMail was publicly introduced in 2004.

> embracing the fact that it is not truly productive to file every single e-mail into a purposeful folder

That's the "Inbox"

> embracing that tagging is better than folders.

I'm pretty sure that Outlook has had categories (the color-coded custom named things that can be multiply applied to emails) since 2000ish.

Re:.mail app by nailer on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @03:19PM (#4292529)
>> embracing the fact that it is not truly productive to file every single e-mail into a purposeful folder

>That's the "Inbox"

In Outlook terms it's search folders.

Re:.mail app by aimatt on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @02:32PM (#4292302)
Someone loves Outlook
Re:.mail app by hussam on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @03:06PM (#4292456)
I'm a dedicated GMail user, but I think it's good to give credit where credit is due.

Autosave was definitely not first in GMail. Thunderbird also allowed messages to be sorted by thread a while back (which you could argue was a rough precursor to GMail's conversation view).

Re:.mail app by ericingram on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @03:55PM (#4292700)
I really like Outlook. I switched to Gmail this year because I wanted free e-mail and Gmail is easier to configure. But, as a client, I enjoyed Outlook much more than I do Gmail.
Re:.mail app by mike-cardwell on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @05:16PM (#4293097)
So why don't you just point Outlook at GMail?
Re:.mail app by rmc on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @01:54PM (#4292109)
really pushed the conversational view and presented it in a single-screen way that was innovative (compare how long it took e-mail clients to catch up with that... and no, "group by thread" did not compare).

I love GMail's conversation view, but AFAIK, not really many other desktop email clients have adopted it. Who else has it?

Re:.mail app by buddylw on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @02:24PM (#4292267)
I'm not really a fan of MS Outlook, but I am forced to use it at work. It does have support for conversation grouping though. Just do "arrange by" -> "show as conversations" from the context menu.
Re:.mail app by wonderzombie on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @02:44PM (#4292366)
Apple Mail has it. I think you can tell it whether you want to see newest-first or the reverse, as well.
Re:.mail app by danneu on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @03:21PM (#4292541)
Actually, Mail.app's lack of conversation view was one of its definitive dealbreakers for me.

In particular, it doesn't include you or your sent mail in the conversation (http://i.imgur.com/Atkcu.png). It only lets you expand the email quotation to let you dig through nested context (http://i.imgur.com/1Zj2e.png).

Compare this to gmail (http://i.imgur.com/mLel3.png) that actually handles it as a conversation. It's one of the reasons I use Mailplane (thin wrapper around gmail) instead of Mail.app.

Re:.mail app by taylorfausak on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @03:34PM (#4292616)
I too was frustrated by Mail.app's lack of a proper conversation view. Turns out, there's a setting to show messages you sent. In the "Viewing" section of Mail.app's preferences, enable "Include related messages". http://imgur.com/i5Eaq
Re:.mail app by tamal on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @03:58PM (#4292721)
This seemingly minor preference is what makes Mail.app useable.
Re:.mail app by ripap on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @03:35PM (#4292625)
Actually, Mail.app can include your own mail in a conversation, but only if you ask it to: select View->Show Related Messages.
Re:.mail app by gddr on Friday July 27, 2012 @05:06PM (#4303578)
Opera seems to have it too, but I don't use it much. It also has had "labels" (as opposed to folders) and message indexing for quite some time, I believe this was one of its main selling points.
Re:.mail app by nailer on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @03:17PM (#4292516)
What's the difference between conversations and threads?

I use gmail, and I use Outlook and PINE and Netscape Mail and Eudora etc and I can't work out what was improved.

Re:.mail app by ionforce on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @05:06PM (#4293042)
Conversations typically trim portions of messages to make it look you only see what people actually type out. It strips things like headers, signatures, replies, etc.

Threads are a sort of pre-Web 2.0 way of doing things. The messages are linked together in the tree portion of the UI but are still viewed individually in the viewing pane. They aren't stacked together like they are in a typical conversation view.

Conversations are a more modern, succinct take on what threads were trying to be.

Re:.mail app by sigil on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @02:57PM (#4292414)
mutt's index view, ordered by thread.
Re:.mail app by adamrt on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @03:16PM (#4292509)
Does mutt include your sent mail in that view? This is one of the gmail features I love. I don't have to dig around to see the flow of a conversation with gmail.

Also, if I receive a message, reply to it and archive that thread it goes away. But if that person reply's again it brings the whole conversation back to the inbox so I can see the previous messages as well.

As someone who uses the inbox as a partial todo list that is amazing. It makes it difficult to switch from gmail, although I've been using mu4e[1] inside emacs.

[1] http://www.djcbsoftware.nl/code/mu/mu4e.html

Re:.mail app by sigil on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @07:57PM (#4293669)
To include your outgoing messages in threads, just set up a hook that adds an Fcc: +inbox header. I used to copy all outgoing messages to a separate +sent folder, but that didn't turn out to be very useful.
Re:.mail app by erangalp on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @03:16PM (#4292510)
Thunderbird has a conversation view (needs to be turned on in the settings)
Re:.mail app by rprasad on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @05:11PM (#4293067)
Outlook has had that since 2003, though it was not very functional until 2010. It is not enabled by default.
Re:.mail app by danielweber on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @01:54PM (#4292112)
I like most of this but Gmail's tagging has been so burdensome and then hard to use the results of such that I've given up on it entirely.

I like being able to sort things away that I don't read often, but GMail told me I didn't want a "read untagged messages" view so it wouldn't let me do that.

Re:.mail app by dboat on Wednesday July 25, 2012 @02:53PM (#4292400)
Open message, "Create filter from this message," add an appropriate label, check skip the inbox and automatically label and your folders are good to go. I wasn't keen on gmail's insistence that labels were all I needed either, but I find this workflow agreeable.