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Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by roenxi on Sunday February 02, 2025 @03:18AM (#42907079)
Hopefully not much. They'll invent some jargon if necessary and move on. The issue with banning "woke ideology" in principle is that it isn't formally defined and doesn't mean anything. And to ban a thing first it has to exist in a detectable way.

My guess is there'll be a bit of flailing then everyone will default back to status quo. It isn't possible to implement incoherent policies and it isn't going to do anyone any favours in terms of image to pursue this. Might take 4 months, might take 4 years to blow over.

Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by lostlogin on Sunday February 02, 2025 @03:28AM (#42907127)
> Might take 4 months, might take 4 years to blow over.

That’s a lot more optimistic than I fear.

Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by JumpCrisscross on Sunday February 02, 2025 @03:40AM (#42907189)
> issue with banning "woke ideology"

It’s the illiberal right shaking hands with the illiberal left. The problem is this time the purges aren’t just ideological, but also financial: there are winners and losers in our healthcare industry likely to be defined by their polarity to Trump.

Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by noobermin on Sunday February 02, 2025 @04:12AM (#42907380)
What "illiberal left" benefits from this? Half of the reason we are at this point is the nonstop equivocation that goes on in our discourse.

Lay this at the feet of who caused it.

Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by JumpCrisscross on Sunday February 02, 2025 @04:17AM (#42907390)
> What "illiberal left" benefits from this

Banning terms from general and academic use originated, in modern America, from the illiberal left’s cancel culture.

I’m not saying they caused this—it’s not novel that illiberalism leads to censorship. But the tactics both groups use when they get their hands on power are remarkably similar.

> the nonstop equivocation

You probably mean false equation. I don’t believe I am, because the illiberal left never came into power. At least not federally. Liberals on the left successfully checked our radicals in a way the right did not.

(If you want policy fusion between the illiberal left and right, it’s in RFK Jr. Marin County sees eye to eye with MAGA on e.g. vaccines.)

Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by asddubs on Sunday February 02, 2025 @04:54AM (#42907588)
before cancel culture it was satanic panic from the right. This is not a new phenomenon, and I don't think it has much to do with the shift towards right wing extremism
Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by JumpCrisscross on Sunday February 02, 2025 @06:22AM (#42907955)
> before cancel culture it was satanic panic from the right

Sure. Illiberal elements exist in every society.

Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by asddubs on Monday February 03, 2025 @04:12AM (#42916382)
my point was less that it's a right or left wing thing in this case, but that it's not a new phenomenon
Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by exe34 on Sunday February 02, 2025 @06:16AM (#42907931)
cancel culture from the left came from grassroot movements - kids at uni get offended and they ban certain words and heckle certain speakers.

cancel culture from the right is coming from POTUS.

can you tell me if you think there's any difference at all between the two?

Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by jprete on Sunday February 02, 2025 @06:50AM (#42908077)
Cancel culture was systematically supported and promoted by the most powerful people in our society.
Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by exe34 on Sunday February 02, 2025 @08:40AM (#42908579)
give five examples?
Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by AuryGlenz on Sunday February 02, 2025 @12:25PM (#42910072)
If we’re talking about banned words or terms, one of our Supreme Court justices wouldn’t define the term “woman.”

The Biden administration directed ICE to use the term “undocumented noncitizen” instead of “illegal alien.” They also pressured social media sites to censor certain content.

There was also the whole Al Franken thing.

Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by exe34 on Sunday February 02, 2025 @02:36PM (#42911102)
is any of this comparable to banning any acknowledgement of the existence of trans and intersex people in anything connected to the federal government?

in fact refusing to define a term doesn't sound like banning at all. to ban is to forbid somebody else from doing something. to refuse to do something personally isn't banning.

Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by roenxi on Monday February 03, 2025 @01:20AM (#42915497)
Being unable to describe a woman would be pretty similar to banning trans acknowledgement. They're basically 2 sides of the same coin; the mismatch between reality and the categories we use. There are different opinions about which part of the mental model has to give. Ie, the concept of man/woman is too imprecise for political discourse - do politicians abandon the word woman or do they abandon the parts of reality that don't fit into a man/woman model?

The obvious solution is the third option of letting a few more genders in, but that would still require being able to articulate what a woman is.

Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by exe34 on Monday February 03, 2025 @03:53AM (#42916270)
again, one of them is refusing to do something, but the other is forbidding the doing of something. there's a huge difference.
Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by roenxi on Monday February 03, 2025 @06:01AM (#42917026)
The gender one is more consequential; if we accept that they exist there are a lot of women who get involved in the legal system because of their gender. Eg, say there is a case that involves gender discrimination - a judge that can't identify what a woman is will struggle to come up with reasonable rulings.

In fairness we don't have the words the judge used in front of us so maybe there was some hedging involved. But they do have to be able to come up with a working definition.

Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by exe34 on Monday February 03, 2025 @07:05AM (#42917357)
if the ruling is unsatisfactory, you can appeal. you can bring in expert witnesses. she's a professional, and she'll make her decisions based on the facts of the case, and hopefully not based on prejudice. if it's the supreme court, she won't be alone.
Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by JumpCrisscross on Sunday February 02, 2025 @06:22AM (#42907951)
> cancel culture from the right is coming from POTUS

Not really. Trump is channeling something that probably came from the book-banning religious conservative crowd.

Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by exe34 on Sunday February 02, 2025 @06:27AM (#42907973)
"the buck stops here". he controls the most powerful army in history. I don't care whose arm is reaching up his colon to move his lips - he's responsible. it's his signature on the orders.
Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by JumpCrisscross on Sunday February 02, 2025 @07:09AM (#42908168)
Nobody is arguing with you on that. You said cancel culture was grassroots while this is not. My point is they both started grassroots. This one just reached higher.
Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by TheOtherHobbes on Sunday February 02, 2025 @06:59AM (#42908111)
He clearly has dementia on top of raging NPD and I'd honestly be surprised if he knows what day it is.
Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by noobermin on Monday February 03, 2025 @03:12AM (#42916039)
The origin is not the point, the power differential is. Hence why this is an equivocation.
Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by throwaway5292 on Sunday February 02, 2025 @04:40AM (#42907513)
When I ban you because you're too right wing for me, then I become you.
Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by exe34 on Sunday February 02, 2025 @06:17AM (#42907937)
one bans by organising their friends and community to shun the other. the other takes control of the apparatus of the state to ban the first.

you and I have very different definitions of banning.

Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by immibis on Sunday February 02, 2025 @05:16AM (#42907692)
A Nazi punching a Jew in the face is much worse than a Jew punching a Nazi in the face. I hope you agree with this. The latter is even, arguably, good.
Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by card_zero on Sunday February 02, 2025 @05:45AM (#42907817)
That's a matter of context, and raises the question of whether they're in a civil society or a war (or both at once). In principle in a civil society nobody should be punching anybody in the face and mitigating circumstances like the other person being a nazi are only details. But see Sartre's feelings about living alongside nazis in occupied France: the were very polite and pleasant, and the whole situation was tense and awkward because you're unsure of your duty in that situation - is it war or not?
Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by Larrikin on Sunday February 02, 2025 @06:35AM (#42908002)
There is no such thing as a civil society when one group believes the other should be segregated, enslaved, have genocide committed against them, etc. That is just gas lighting one group so that they don't know they are the frog in the boiling pot. Trying to be civil in a tolerance paradox situation just makes sure you're eliminated, but maybe just not today.
Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by tnias23 on Sunday February 02, 2025 @12:17PM (#42910003)
Is this a quote from Sartre, or just an interpretation? I looked for it and couldn’t find it, beyond maybe representing his “Paris under the occupation”
Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by card_zero on Monday February 03, 2025 @07:21AM (#42917451)
No, not a quote, a very poor recollection of casually reading about this. He was keen on resisting, tried to organize a group (of writers?) and made some proposals for violent acts (assassinations?) but they couldn't get it together to do anything.
Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by GeneralMayhem on Sunday February 02, 2025 @04:19AM (#42907400)
> It isn't possible to implement incoherent policies

If you assume that the goal is to implement a policy, no, it's not possible. But that's never the goal with such chaos. The goal is to make it unclear what's allowed or not, so that the real answer becomes: whatever the current ruler favors is allowed, and whatever he dislikes is disallowed. "Woke ideology", like "globalism" or "cultural Marxism" before it, means nothing, which means it can mean anything.

Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by crabbone on Sunday February 02, 2025 @06:01AM (#42907872)
I remember my dad having to travel to Moscow during the Soviet times to get the censor's approval for the movie he was planning to shoot (that is on top of budget-related issues etc.) I was still very little then, but from what little I remember, it seemed like it always was a guessing game: how much do you have to add of glory to the proletariat in order to make the cut. Naturally, artists were turning their noses when they saw too much of the Soviet propaganda in a movie, so, they tried to put as little of it as possible, at the same time using all sorts of tricks to disguise the criticism of the system that required the censorship.

And while this kind of little struggle had its fun moments... overall, I don't think it was fun. Also, indeed the rules of what's allowed or disallowed would change based on current political events, and just like in 1984, everyone was supposed to acknowledge that the rules had always been the way they currently are. Which, in terms of long-term planning, would sometimes result in problems. Like, when someone was trying to placate the censorship by overemphasizing some political aspect at the time of submission, but the events developed so fast, that the official party line at the assessment time was the exact opposite of what it was at the submission time.

----

Oh, and just to give some examples of when the "proto-woke" (in Soviet times it was called the "decadent capitalist influence") had some tragic consequences.

The only acceptable painting style was Soviet Realism. Anything that had signs of deliberate distortion of color / perspective / size / anatomy etc. would be labeled "decadent capitalist" and perpetrators would be prosecuted.

So, another student in my dad's class came in drunk to a model drawing session. And instead of using a graphite pencil, used what was called a "chemical pencil", which is a kind of Indian-ink based pencil (it's practically impossible to erase). And, in a study of a head of a model, that student made several strokes that extended beyond where the area of the nose would've been, and so it looked like the model had whiskers...

That student was later taken away to the dean, and in short time was expelled.

Another student was expelled for wiping his paintbrush on the canvas (which he later planned to cover with some neutral background color, but was too late...) because he forgot to bring a piece of rug that one usually uses to wipe a brush before using a different paint.

That sounds like a fun anecdote, but those two had their lives ruined.

Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by ptero on Sunday February 02, 2025 @08:48AM (#42908614)
> The only acceptable painting style was Soviet Realism

It was the "socialistic realism". Being interested in math this particular insanity did not affect me too much, but for someone interested in the arts living under this gun was a 24x7 reality. Not fun times...

Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by crabbone on Sunday February 02, 2025 @12:08PM (#42909929)
Yeah, my bad. Funny how I managed to forget it. That was a big part of my life :) It was still a thing when I went to art college.

And then years later I'd go to see Kyiv Art Academy final year exhibition, and it was still socialistic realism, but now instead of workers and farmers they have saints. For some reason it became very religious... Or maybe I just fell on bad years.

Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by yencabulator on Sunday February 02, 2025 @02:36PM (#42911103)
The weirdest thing is to watch the American right wing implement a Russian playbook. The people who made loudest noises about "commies" are now fawning over the Eastern Bloc.
Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by pangolinpouch on Sunday February 02, 2025 @05:46PM (#42912654)
Should not be too surprising. Russia is mot communist anymore and advocate a more traditional society.
Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by yencabulator on Sunday February 02, 2025 @08:07PM (#42913748)
But the book was written as a guide to how to take down USA. Implementing the book for local politics = helping Russian goals.
Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by GeneralMayhem on Sunday February 02, 2025 @07:53PM (#42913636)
Today's Russia is not communist in any way. It's a far-right-wing autocratic kleptocracy, where all power is held by a single individual and those who have personal favor with him, all wealth is managed through a cycle of corrupt state-sponsored ventures, and all cultural identity is wrapped up in tradition and faux-masculinity. There's not even a pretention of left-wing influence; it's a fully fascist state.

The USSR was obviously similar in practice for most of its history, especially under Stalin, but it still pretended to maintain the trappings of a communist structure. And at least the USSR made it clear what the rules were: it was an unabashed command economy, with property owned by the state, and economic decisions flowing through the party leadership. The Putin/Trump version where there's a de jure market economy but de facto control by the ruling party is a different kind of corruption incentive - it's much harder to challenge what theoretically isn't happening.

Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by yencabulator on Sunday February 02, 2025 @08:06PM (#42913743)
Having lived close enough to it to "pick up the vibes" I'm going to say the only that's really changed is the flavor of the propaganda. USSR might have started asba leftist thing (I wouldn't know), but it didn't behave like one toward the end. It was all about power & corruption.
Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by _heimdall on Sunday February 02, 2025 @07:52AM (#42908319)
Governments implement incoherent policies all the time.

I'd argue that it isn't possible to write thousands of pages in a single bill or budget proposal and have it actually be coherent.

Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by toss1 on Sunday February 02, 2025 @08:22AM (#42908466)
It also might take four generations or four centuries to 'blow over'

Authoritarians do not stop until they are stopped by an external force.

The cost of stopping them only increases with every move they make to consolidate power (which of course is the intention).

Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by adriand on Sunday February 02, 2025 @09:01AM (#42908678)
From the article:

> This is leading to what Germans call “vorauseilender Gehorsam,” or “preemptive obedience,” as one non-CDC scientist commented.

And why is this term German? Do, perhaps, the Germans have unique experience and insight in this regard?

> After the German elections of 1932, which permitted Adolf Hitler to form a government, or the Czechoslovak elections of 1946, where communists were victorious, the next crucial step was anticipatory obedience. Because enough people in both cases voluntarily extended their services to the new leaders, Nazis and communists alike realized that they could move quickly toward a full regime change. The first heedless acts of conformity could not then be reversed. [1]

It’s become fashionable to accuse people who raise the spectre of fascism and authoritarianism of crying wolf. We are being told not to believe the evidence of our own eyes, like when Elon Musk performs the Nazi salute in front of the far right dignitaries assembled for the inauguration and we’re supposed to believe this is because he’s on the spectrum or some other nonsense. If you don’t want to go down the road that anticipatory obedience leads to, then you have to resist. It is that simple.

1: https://lithub.com/resist-authoritarianism-by-refusing-to-ob...

Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by selimthegrim on Sunday February 02, 2025 @09:23AM (#42908798)
Late Soviets had term for it too - “aggressive-obedient majority”, although this applies more to Republicans in legislature and the Air Force people who took down Tuskegee stuff
Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by wl on Sunday February 02, 2025 @08:29AM (#42908515)
> They'll invent some jargon if necessary and move on.

The authors of this memo banning terms haven't realized this has already happened in part. Obstetrics avoids the use of gender with the term "parturient" instead of "mother." "Pregnant person" probably isn't showing up in many papers.

Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by bnjms on Sunday February 02, 2025 @12:11PM (#42909955)
What’s wrong referring to the relevant sex characteristics? Why change language for the exceptional and small population? A man who gives birth is still the mother even if they take a social role of a father later in the child’s development.
Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by gaganyaan on Sunday February 02, 2025 @12:23PM (#42910056)
Additionally, men don't give birth. Women on cross-sex hormones can give birth. We need to stop with the silliness of "pregnant people".
Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by LordDragonfang on Sunday February 02, 2025 @03:52PM (#42911712)
Because their sex characteristics aren't the relevant thing, the fact that they are pregnant is. The medical field prefers precise terminology. It's only when it comes to trans people that people get weird about it, because they're really using it as an excuse to argue about something else
Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by foxglacier on Sunday February 02, 2025 @10:20AM (#42909172)
And maybe that's fine because it isn't a signal of ideology like "pregnant person" is. Don't forget that if scientists were using these terms, they were likely already doing so because of political pressure, so it is good to stop it in cases where it's nothing to do with their research (eg. transgender parturients). Of course it doesn't mean this order isn't ham-fisted, but research is often polluted by politics because it helps get funding as well as researchers are pretty politically biased in some fields.
Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by narrator on Sunday February 02, 2025 @08:56AM (#42908658)
One of the main tactics of woke is to take a word with a long intellectual history, prestige and generally agreed upon meaning and change its meaning to mean the opposite. In the commercial sphere this would be litigated as trademark infringement and trademark disparagement, as it is a deliberate attempt to confuse consumers, but in the intellectual sphere, this crime goes unpunished.

A recent example of a word they have redefined to mean its opposite would be the word "Woman." By redefining this word to mean its opposite, they use that new meaning to launch a whole societal transformation campaign by demanding everyone endorse their new meaning or be cancelled. They educate the next generation in the new meaning and create confusion and discord because they make the entire intellectual history of the western world mean something different or not make sense by this redefinition of commonly used words.

For those who'd like to go down this intellectual rabbit hole, because I'm not the one who came up with it, James Lindsay has pointed out that this is essentially the ancient mystical technique of "hermetic transmutation," where people believe that their mere thoughts can change reality.

Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by vladms on Sunday February 02, 2025 @09:20AM (#42908776)
Agreed upon? Or taught in a certain way?

From far away (Europe) I don't see a big difference between the multiple "fanatical" groups that I hear about in US that define one thing or another "their way" and everybody else's opinion it's wrong. And that covers a wide range of topics (like: religion, guns, transportation, gender, etc.)

And just because some people are fanatical on a topic, does not mean there are not huge issues around those topics. Just as an example on gender, the horrible violence that was (and probably) inflicted to women (extreme examples: Pelicot and Fritzl cases)

But sure, it is easier to argue on useless definitions (either for or against) that try to address root causes...

Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by harimau777 on Sunday February 02, 2025 @11:02AM (#42909454)
I think you may be misunderstanding what's happening. The goal is not to change the meaning of words, it is to explore greater nuance in order to expand the ideas that people are able to consider.

In the case of woman, the recognition is that "woman" as commonly used conflates two separate ideas: The gender that someone was assigned at birth (which in the vast majority of cases means someone's biology) and the social constructs that define "woman" (e.g. dress, role in society, acceptable behavior, etc.).

Separating conflated ideas allows people to think in more detail since they can consider them separately.

Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by narrator on Sunday February 02, 2025 @11:29AM (#42909640)
Make a brand new word then. Even if you want to add all these layers to societal interaction we can call people who want a different identity "Gender Identified Woman."

Don't confuse the meaning of the existing word and pretend it's necessary. That's another tactic is conflating categories. Usually there's some sympathetic category that is a tiny amount of people, like genuine at-birth hermaphrodites, and they argue about that while at the same time pretending all that stuff applies to men who want to be housed in women's prisons.

One thing that drives me nuts with this language stuff lately is how the word "Partner" came to mean romantic partner because people can't just be bothered to say "girlfriend" or "boyfriend" anymore. Now, when people introduce their "partner" in a context where it's ambiguous whether it's personal or business "partner" I have to wonder in which sense do they mean it.

Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by seizethegdgap on Sunday February 02, 2025 @11:58AM (#42909848)
> Now, when people introduce their "partner" in a context where it's ambiguous whether it's personal or business "partner" I have to wonder in which sense do they mean it.

You could use the power of the spoken word to ask them directly. You can ask probing questions if you’re not comfortable being that direct.

Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by elygre on Sunday February 02, 2025 @01:42PM (#42910684)
Of course, the word girlfriend is already ambiguous. From Merriam-Wester: "1. a female friend 2. a frequent or regular female companion in a romantic or sexual relationship".
Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by kanbara on Sunday February 02, 2025 @01:57PM (#42910802)
you'd hate the german language where der/die Freund/in can be friend or romantic partner and is extremely commonplace in the language
Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by steele on Sunday February 02, 2025 @12:22PM (#42910048)
If you believe woke is an agent with tactics, you're already boxing ghost boogeypersons in the land of make believe.
Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by dang on Sunday February 02, 2025 @02:05PM (#42910862)
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42907079.
Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by Neonlicht on Sunday February 02, 2025 @09:05AM (#42908697)
It's a lot easier to destroy something than rebuild it.

I've always joked that Trump was basically the Manchurian candidate.

Re:CDC orders mass retraction of research across all science... by throw0101a on Sunday February 02, 2025 @09:51AM (#42908976)
> Hopefully not much. They'll invent some jargon if necessary and move on.

"Winnie-the-Pooh"?