Many opinionated frameworks are also less reliable because of the layers of abstraction, so I'd also associate opinionated framework = sexy and temporary.
I've never actually used Rails in production, just did some tutorial, so I'm probably wrong about this.
But the good news is that you can just ignore them and enjoy the framework, like I do.
Why? What is wrong with DHH?
It's also possible to appreciate the stuff he's done for software whilst not being in love with him as a person.
I’ve had a negative opinion of him for a good five years or so, but at least right now it’s easy to go read those and form your own strong opinion one way or another.
> Many opinionated frameworks are also less reliable because of the layers of abstraction, so I'd also associate opinionated framework = sexy and temporary.
That's one of the persistent knocks against rails -- the layers of abstraction. I think that's fair, but it's a tradeoff. You either go along with it because it's advantageous or don't. Once you get familiar with the concepts and the theory of it the framework does what you expect, not a lot of surprises.
I'll push back on "temporary" though. It's been around for 20 years. It's old, so by definition it's not sexy.
Personally, I've built a number of apps in Rails that are still in production so it's a solid choice.
I think of RoR, Laravel, Next.js, and Django etc. like I'm crowdsourcing my apps architecture so I can just worry about building out my business logic.
Even if you don't choose a framework at some point you end up building your own framework and introducing new opinions anyway, what I often see in these homegrown frameworks are.
1. Somewhat conflicting opinions expressed across different layers of abstraction that you build into your app over time.
2. In not having an opinion you try to satisfy many ways of solving problems introducing more edge case problems and serious over engineering.
The other approach is to build it on a platform that shifts with the changes, i.e. hybrid and web. But if you crack open the source of Cordova, you find all kinds of tangled, unmaintained, bad practice wiring and rewiring. I spent a few months trying to hack Cordova plugins and we decided to just scrap the entire code and build native; fully rewriting the app into a custom framework took 3 months.
However, it sounds like tools like Rails are built on a very sturdy platform that doesn't introduce breaking changes every year? That's an angle I haven't considered.
The Jason Fried and David Hansson Musk/Fascist vibes are real and are a problem. Most of the people in the Ruby community recognize that problem and are taking steps to mitigate that issue. Most of the core Rails committers don't work for 37 signals, and it's not really a thing made just by them.
Definitely use Rails to start a new project. The real hero here is Ruby and the Ruby ecosystem. It's incredibly stable and mature, But also getting faster every year. About 20 years ago Ruby web frameworks agreed on an ad hoc server interface api, Rack, which is one of the secrets that has made Ruby incredibly stable.
The package system, Ruby Gems, is really great. You can find a Gem for just about anything you could ever need or want. With mountains of Open Source projects and code to read to pick up patterns, or to see prior art to solve a unique problem you're encountering.
Anyways, it's a really solid choice.
What do you mean by this? Where have Jason Fried or David Hansson supported fascism? Your account is ten years old and this is the first comment you've ever made.
I mean that they give off Fascist vibes, and that it's a problem. Adoration for and support of fascist people and regimes are implicit support of fascism. Not explicit.
Go read their blogs, I'm sure you'll find lots of examples.
But you've just repeated the accusation and said that you think it's a problem. You haven't provided proof of any actual fascism.
https://world.hey.com/dhh/mega-a0f62cd4 "so pumped up about Trump"
https://world.hey.com/dhh/failed-integration-and-the-fall-of... "multiculturalism is bad"
https://world.hey.com/dhh/the-social-media-censorship-era-is... "hooray for lack of fact checking"
(you may agree with him or not, and he makes better argument than Musk, but it's the same vibe)
Only way to avoid being called either a fascist or woke (and I know some who are accused of both!) nowadays is to never say anything.
It doesn't mean you're not wrong. Is this a personal vendetta?
>I mean that they give off Fascist vibes, and that it's a problem. Adoration for and support of fascist people and regimes are implicit support of fascism.
Where? Link examples where they supported Fascism. "Vibes" are meaningless, I need specific examples of these claims, else they can be tossed outright.
>Go read their blogs, I'm sure you'll find lots of examples.
Didn't find anything about supporting Fascism.
To reorient the discussion around what the original poster talked about, that he gives off Elon Musk Vibes. And that it's a problem. Well it IS a problem. A problem openly, and vigorously discussed in the Ruby community.
Many people have left the Ruby community because of his behavior, and many more have chosen never to come into the community because of it. Because of the perceived strong association between him and the Ruby and Rails community at large.
Anyways, as per my original point, that despite the Fascist vibes from that guy, Ruby and Rails are still really great choices.
Oh, so you don't have any proof, got it. Your claims have been dismissed, David is not fascist.
>Kinda lazy that you're all not out there looking for the proof yourself.
There is no proof.
>To reorient the discussion around what the original poster talked about, that he gives off Elon Musk Vibes. And that it's a problem. Well it IS a problem.
No proof of this either, so your claim is dismissed outright.
>A problem openly, and vigorously discussed in the Ruby community.
Any proof of this? Who claims it's a problem?
>Many people have left the Ruby community because of his behavior
Looks like a loud minority of leftist activists may have left. That explains how Ruby has only gotten better since.
>many more have chosen never to come into the community because of it.
Many more have chose to join the community now that the activists are gone.
>Anyways, as per my original point, that despite the Fascist vibes from that guy
There are no Fascist vibes as shown above.
Ironically, this attitude is quite Trumpian. I hope you're just pretending to cover the laziness of your argument.
Why? What "Musk vibes" have they given off?
My political compass tends to be BRICS vs G7, religious vs secular. If you're saying they're both G7-secular, I guess that makes sense too.
edit: Also I was not even aware of Musk and the fascist thing before posting the comment, and I can see how it may have been interpreted differently now, lol.
I'm not saying Fried or Musk are wrong, and they both have brilliant insights at times. If Musk was crazy and wrong all the time, he wouldn't be a brand name.
But both of them also appeal to susceptible people who seem to think that a few good opinions make them good all the time. Basecamp isn't even a good tool, it's a pretty average one, yet prettier than Jira. But it's down this funnel of people who will buy whatever Fried and DHH sell them.
And what I'm getting at is whether Rails is one of those things that is average but prettier than Node?
Except he didn't do that, what he implemented was not making personal politics a part of Basecamp's workplace culture, which is a much more moderate thing than what you're accusing him of here.
You might not be aware of this, but it's possible to have a personal opinion about something and not bring societal and political discussions to the company account or forum. Here's the text of the new policy:
https://world.hey.com/jason/changes-at-basecamp-7f32afc5
"People can take the conversations with willing co-workers to Signal, Whatsapp, or even a personal Basecamp account, but it can't happen where the work happens anymore."
Again, this is not at all the same thing as "no personal opinions [allowed] at Basecamp."
Not affiliated with either of those things, but what does this even mean? Basecamp is a business. Jason Fried is a businessman. Basecamp is a product developed by 37 Signals, a company Fried co-founded.
How does any of that create "Musk vibes"? I'm seriously wondering what this is all about.
i know what you mean about abstraction and flexibilty, but I think Rails mostly avoids that and is actually quite flexible. But I don't use the new hotwire JS stuff, that is one area where I share your concern. It's easy to use Rails without it, with the JS of your choice.
Some of these are eyebrow raising and certainly not boring!
I long to live in your world where this is the case!
Unfortunately the migration from Sidekiq + Redis → Solid Queue has been anything but boring.
If I was at a startup trying to solve a business problem, the last thing I'd want to do is bruise my knuckles fighting with my tools. Rails provides an opinionated way to structure your codebase as well as many existing modules that just work. It's not exclusive in this space, but it's a safe bet. You can get any dev that's familiar with rails to ramp up pretty quick. If you rolled a custom web framework in a dialect of javascript you may have a more challenging time.
0: https://boringtechnology.club