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Re:UK's elite hardware talent is being wasted by smartties on Sunday January 19, 2025 @08:54PM (#42764175)
This seems to be the case for most European countries, particularly here in France. We’re experiencing stagnation, or perhaps even a decline. Launching a product in Europe is significantly more challenging due to the market’s high fragmentation. I don’t have much hope for the future of tech companies in Europe.
Re:UK's elite hardware talent is being wasted by tokioyoyo on Sunday January 19, 2025 @09:41PM (#42764438)
If it makes you feel better, I'm having a hard time to think of a single country with more than 10M people that doesn't have the same problem.
Re:UK's elite hardware talent is being wasted by alecco on Monday January 20, 2025 @03:41AM (#42766345)
The problem is policy is oriented to growing GDP and not GDP per capita. Large corporations benefit from GDP growth and lower wages, so they incentivize the political class to grow the population artificially (wink-wink).
Re:UK's elite hardware talent is being wasted by nobodywillobsrv on Monday January 20, 2025 @04:07AM (#42766547)
The other problem is the welfare state or just the state. So much graft and just living off printed money. It pushes out success. What percent of the UK is effectively civil servants or people receiving benefits? What percent are net takers? A lot
Re:UK's elite hardware talent is being wasted by anonymousDan on Monday January 20, 2025 @04:40AM (#42766813)
Why do you equate civil servants with people receiving benefits? What a load of nonsense.
Re:UK's elite hardware talent is being wasted by truckerbill on Monday January 20, 2025 @04:46AM (#42766859)
it’s more about wealth. You need a functioning welfare state to allow people to take risks
Re:UK's elite hardware talent is being wasted by youngtaff on Monday January 20, 2025 @05:19AM (#42767103)
Most of the benefits bill in the UK is paid to people who receive the the state pension

Of the others it's split between those who don't earn enough from work i.e. their employers don't pay them enough to live on so those benefits are essentially subsidising companies

And the other large chunk is people who aren't fit to work, this increased as a result of Covid but also the underfunding of health / social care by the previous government

The civil service isn't that big but the largest influx of people was caused by Brexit and the need to duplicate many of the things that didn't need to be separate when part of the EU

The people who've been living off printed money as those with assets, almost all the gains from the cheap money supply over the last 15 or so years has gone to the well off

Re:UK's elite hardware talent is being wasted by sealeck on Monday January 20, 2025 @08:13AM (#42768359)
> The other problem is the welfare state or just the state. So much graft and just living off printed money. It pushes out success.

I see these uninformed comments all the time, and to be they suggest that the person in question has an intense ideological bent, but an aversion to evidence. As another commenter pointed out, a large amount of UK benefits spending (~£100bn) is on the state pension (the single largest benefit).

You are correct that there are a large number of economically inactive people in the UK (something like 20% of working-age people). We have had at least 50 years of government presupposing that the problem here is that these people are lazy, and a little stick will motivate them back to work. The mere fact that this has not worked (and we have tried it repeatedly) might suggest that the problem is a bit more complex than this.

One issue is that the general health of the population is very poor. Unfortunately, improving this is a very hard problem. I think people underestimate just how hard. If you could solve this, you would create hundreds of billions of pounds in value (I am not underestimating). Presumably some starting points would be working out how to lower the costs of fruit and vegetables and increase the cost of ultra-processed fast food. Not sure what else helps here. I would give this a read: https://billmitchell.org/blog/?p=61595

The other problem is that there are no jobs for the people in question, so even if they want to work (or are heavily incentivised to do so) they are not able to. The government can create some employment for these people, but a better vocational training system might help here.

The graft and living off printed money I do see is mostly in housing – people in the UK love to own and rent out houses. This means that (compared to e.g. Germany/Switzerland/Austria) there are very weak protections for renters. Additionally, when house prices are really high it makes it very challenging to build industries on top of this.

Re:UK's elite hardware talent is being wasted by Symbiote on Monday January 20, 2025 @02:40PM (#42772262)
> Presumably some starting points would be working out how to lower the costs of fruit and vegetables and increase the cost of ultra-processed fast food.

Britain has implemented a sugar tax, but I despair when even a right-wing governments attempt to make walking and cycling easier falls victim to culture war nonsense.

Re:UK's elite hardware talent is being wasted by potatosurfer on Tuesday January 21, 2025 @09:41AM (#42780595)
Spain and other EU countries are growing but not really from technological development. https://www.euronews.com/business/2024/10/31/why-is-spains-e...
Re:UK's elite hardware talent is being wasted by monero-xmr on Sunday January 19, 2025 @10:49PM (#42764799)
It’s exhausting trying to explain this to American leftists. They believe the UK / EU is rich, their healthcare is amazing and “free”, and no one has to work more than 35 hours a week. They visit London and Paris once in 10 years for vacation and think they understand the economic order.
Re:UK's elite hardware talent is being wasted by riffraff on Monday January 20, 2025 @02:05AM (#42765780)
Both things can be true: I am happy with the European welfare state and still think there are structural problems.

UK and EU are rich, even if their economy is not doing great.

Re:UK's elite hardware talent is being wasted by alecco on Monday January 20, 2025 @03:50AM (#42766419)
European corporations and political class are rich and benefit from high GDP stimulated by mass migration and foreign funds cornering the housing market.

But European salaries are stagnating and job security is dropping like a stone, while the cost of living is steadily rising. And public healthcare is getting terrible with months of wait for an appointment.

Spain is now used as example of a growing economy in EU but youth unemployment is high and rising and wages are peanuts compared to housing. A lot of native Spanish kids are just checking out. I guess the Spanish corporations and foreign investors are having a blast. And the boomers with their fat pensions and renting their real estate portfolio.

Of note, the same is happening even in China. I feel really bad for Gen Z.

Re:UK's elite hardware talent is being wasted by riffraff on Wednesday January 22, 2025 @05:34PM (#42798237)
Spain's youth unemployment halved in ten years from 57%+ to 26%.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youth_unemployment_in_Spain#....

Yes, cost of living got worse. This does not in any way make the EU poor.

Re:UK's elite hardware talent is being wasted by CalRobert on Monday January 20, 2025 @02:32AM (#42765930)
Ah yes, my fabulous Dutch healthcare basically consisting of being told "you're fine" and overpriced acetaminophen.
Re:UK's elite hardware talent is being wasted by makingstuffs on Monday January 20, 2025 @03:13AM (#42766162)
Sounds like the non-existent British NHS where getting an appointment to see a doctor is about as likely as meeting the Loch Ness Monster for a spot of tea and crumpets.
Re:UK's elite hardware talent is being wasted by amenhotep on Monday January 20, 2025 @04:16AM (#42766609)
I'm currently being treated by the NHS and they've been excellent, and I got a same day appointment with a doctor last week.

Admittedly I did phone the surgery at 0800 to get it. But this is awful hyperbole.

Re:UK's elite hardware talent is being wasted by CalRobert on Monday January 20, 2025 @03:19AM (#42766196)
Ironically when we were living in Ireland and my daughter was going to have to wait 16 months to get a suspicious growth checked for cancer it was the UK that made it possible for us to go to a private clinic near Belfast and have her checked in a week. And it still wasn't even expensive. Free healthcare isn't actually free if you die waiting.
Re:UK's elite hardware talent is being wasted by defrost on Monday January 20, 2025 @03:33AM (#42766292)
It used to be the jewel in the crown of empire though.

Thatcher and the more recent 14 years of UK Conservative government seemed to have kicked it bloody and senseless like Alex and his droogs from the Korova Milkbar.

Re:UK's elite hardware talent is being wasted by alecco on Monday January 20, 2025 @03:55AM (#42766459)
Only the Conservatives? You think Blair, Brown, and now Starmer did great things for the country? Give me a break. The whole political class is rotten. And the upcoming "Reform UK" is a joke, to say the least.
Re:UK's elite hardware talent is being wasted by defrost on Monday January 20, 2025 @04:02AM (#42766510)
> You think Blair, Brown, and now Starmer did great things for the country?

No, but apparently you think that I think that. Perhaps you might like to work through that again ...

Leaving the state of the UK as a whole to one side, the NHS was actively kicked like a dog prior to Blair who did at least stop kicking it and attempt to reverse the decline with some, albeit limited, success.

eg: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1871752/

Re:UK's elite hardware talent is being wasted by alecco on Monday January 20, 2025 @06:44AM (#42767669)
The comment I replied to only places blame on Conservatives. There is a name for this: "lying by omission".
Re:UK's elite hardware talent is being wasted by pjc50 on Monday January 20, 2025 @10:22AM (#42769583)
The NHS and the Empire don't really overlap. It was founded right at the end of the war, shortly before the UK started having to divest from its colonies, and of course it was never a thing in any of the non-UK colonies!

I often think the NHS was only founded as a result of the war, as an extension of the military and civilian healthcare needs for injury care. German bombers didn't respect the British class system.

Re:UK's elite hardware talent is being wasted by ta1243 on Monday January 20, 2025 @10:29AM (#42769646)
Certainly not my experience. Phone up for an appointment and get it same day.

Seems to be a postcode lottery

Re:UK's elite hardware talent is being wasted by zelos on Monday January 20, 2025 @08:42AM (#42768642)
Please don't tell me the grass isn't really greener in the Netherlands. Moving over there (from SE England) is one of my dreams.
Re:UK's elite hardware talent is being wasted by CalRobert on Monday January 20, 2025 @09:30AM (#42769078)
It’s nice here! My kids can bike to school and not be killed. But the health care is… meh.
Re:UK's elite hardware talent is being wasted by ta1243 on Monday January 20, 2025 @10:24AM (#42769605)
And yet you pay more per capita than the UK
Re:UK's elite hardware talent is being wasted by James_K on Monday January 20, 2025 @02:50AM (#42766050)
You should understand that the American situation is, in fact, much worse than ours in many ways. For instance, the average American pays a 40% tax rate compared to our 25% once you account for healthcare.
Re:UK's elite hardware talent is being wasted by monero-xmr on Monday January 20, 2025 @03:03PM (#42772489)
The majority of Americans pay 0% tax. They get free healthcare via Medicaid or Obamacare, and get refunded any taxes paid by the EITC.

The richest Americans pay an outsized amount of taxes.

The upper middle class pays a very low tax rate. If your family income is less than $500,000 per year, your blended tax rate will be around 35%.

Europeans do pay taxes for their healthcare. You can't "hide" the taxes Europeans pay, that is illogical

Re:UK's elite hardware talent is being wasted by constantcrying on Monday January 20, 2025 @03:15PM (#42772593)
American leftist discourse about Europe is always hilarious. Apparently someone forgot to tell them that the "free" healthcare just means that it is forcibly deducted from your pay and only "free" if you don't work (Free meaning the people who work pay for you). Also they forget to mention that the actual health care system is chronically understaffed and that you should avoid the hospital if at all possible and that you might wait months to see a specialist.

Car discourse is another very good one. Apparently Europeans just really hate cars and take bikes/busses everywhere. They seem to genuinely believe that the US is the only country in the world with a car culture.

Re:UK's elite hardware talent is being wasted by realusername on Sunday January 19, 2025 @11:04PM (#42764874)
I lived and worked in both countries and I feel like the UK is in a worse situation than France nowadays.

It's hard to admit for French citizens but the EU significantly props up the French economy and reduces the structural issues of the country.

Re:UK's elite hardware talent is being wasted by sebmellen on Monday January 20, 2025 @12:55AM (#42765408)
EU meaning… Germany?
Re:UK's elite hardware talent is being wasted by realusername on Monday January 20, 2025 @01:55AM (#42765735)
EU meaning the rest of the EU, Germany included but everybody else is contributing to the common market
Re:UK's elite hardware talent is being wasted by ta1243 on Monday January 20, 2025 @10:39AM (#42769743)
Germany provides about the same contribution to EU GDP as California and Texas do to the US.

The top 8/51 states(+dc) generate 50% of US GDP, the top 3/27 EU generate EU.

The bottom half of EU states generate just 9% of EU GDP, but then the bottom half of US states generate 14%

Re:UK's elite hardware talent is being wasted by iLoveOncall on Monday January 20, 2025 @03:14AM (#42766168)
I have also lived in both and I agree with you. The UK is a lot worse.

At least France has some things going for it, healthcare is still good, unemployment benefits are good, etc.

The UK has literally nothing to show for.

Re:UK's elite hardware talent is being wasted by alecco on Monday January 20, 2025 @03:56AM (#42766465)
Arguing about which sinking ship is going down faster.
Re:UK's elite hardware talent is being wasted by izacus on Monday January 20, 2025 @10:32AM (#42769677)
When in reality neither are actually sinking.
Re:UK's elite hardware talent is being wasted by DaedPsyker on Monday January 20, 2025 @06:29AM (#42767562)
A few here have commented on different aspects, and they have their part to play but I agree with you, market fragmentation is the scale killer.

From an outside perspective it might appear like Europe is a true single market like the US but it isn't. Scaling to a European level isn't impossible but it is difficult. Some of that will just be difficult to do anything about, language, different cultures, etc. On the political side I'm sure there is plenty more the EU can do but I don't see the will.

Re:UK's elite hardware talent is being wasted by James_K on Monday January 20, 2025 @07:06AM (#42767825)
Market fragmentation is a measurable phenomenon, as far as a language goes. The language barrier is just the cost of a translator. Is that cost prohibitively high in Europe? I hear a lot of explanations of why Europe has fewer tech companies than America, but they are almost never backed by statistics. The most obvious answer continues to be the Bretton Woods system, by which large amounts of money are funnelled into America, seemingly without reason. China inverts this flow by debasing its currency, and Europe does not.
Re:UK's elite hardware talent is being wasted by sealeck on Monday January 20, 2025 @08:06AM (#42768292)
> The language barrier is just the cost of a translator.

Is it?

> Market fragmentation is a measurable phenomenon, as far as a language goes.

Market fragmentation isn't about language fragmentation – the EU has no single market for services currently, which means if you want to launch a product EU-wide you are effectively launching a product in 27 different countries. There is some harmonization, but not much. If you launch a product in the US you have a large fully harmonized single market.

Re:UK's elite hardware talent is being wasted by izacus on Monday January 20, 2025 @10:35AM (#42769697)
The most bizarre thing is that the loudest critics of EUs market fragmentation are usually the most aggressive blockers of integration that would mitigate these issues.
Re:UK's elite hardware talent is being wasted by James_K on Monday January 20, 2025 @11:50AM (#42770487)
What exactly is the current single market for services lacking?

https://single-market-economy.ec.europa.eu/single-market/ser...

They seem to have a lot of bases covered.

Re:UK's elite hardware talent is being wasted by eunos on Monday January 20, 2025 @07:13AM (#42767892)
Well specifically for engineering-related products (both software and hardware).

How can you thrive and be competitive when your competitors in the far-east work for >60 hours per week with a solid ecosystem and generous support from the government?

I am specifically worried about the future of European engineering, unlike US you have much smaller capitals and moats. Many of the products are sustained mainly by legacy built by your predecessors.

If nothing changes then by next-generation most if not all would be devoured by chaebols, Asian Sovereign Wealth Funds, or American PEs. You'll have to work for >60 hours but they not you will enjoy the surplus. Take your poison.

Quantity has a quality of its own.