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Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by latentsea on Thursday December 12, 2024 @07:06PM (#42404726)
How exactly does one memorize an essentially random list of approximately 40,000 strings such that they could pull any of those strings out a hat at will in just 9 weeks?

What kind of sorcery would even make that possible?

Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by masfuerte on Thursday December 12, 2024 @07:25PM (#42404827)
Apparently his mother said, about teaching him Scrabble:

"When he learnt to talk he wasn't interested in words, just numbers. I said: I know a game you're not going to be very good at because you can't spell very well and you weren't good at English at school."

I guess the sorcery you are looking for is spite.

Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by username135 on Thursday December 12, 2024 @08:24PM (#42405167)
amen to that
Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by liquidise on Friday December 13, 2024 @02:12AM (#42406553)
> the sorcery you are looking for is spite.

Both philosophical and poetic. True brilliance.

Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by stevage on Friday December 13, 2024 @02:33AM (#42406634)
Scrabble really is a maths game. It just looks like a word game.
Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by vikingerik on Friday December 13, 2024 @03:06AM (#42406778)
Right. It's not a word game, it's an area-control game with 150,000 rules for legal placement of your resources.

Codenames is a word game. Scrabble is about arbitrary sequences of glyphs.

Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by stevage on Friday December 13, 2024 @06:29AM (#42407675)
Interestingly there are versions with more restricted tilesets and hence fever words to learn. Like one that only uses the letters of BOGGLE.
Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by vunderba on Thursday December 12, 2024 @08:05PM (#42405058)
Where did you pull that number from? The ODS which is the official French Scrabble dictionary has something like 300,000 words.

In 9 weeks that's averaging memorizing several THOUSAND words PER DAY.

And don't give me BULL like "well plurality S/ES means a lot less" - yeah. NO. He still has to remember which words take what kind of plurality. And if you watch ANY interviews with him, you can tell he doesn't really take any shortcuts - he just straight-up memorizes them as a series of playable "tokens".

I'm all for the "indomitable human spirit" but you could practice 24/7 and you'd still be SCRABBLING at base camp while Nigel Richards summitted Everest without the aid of supplemental oxygen.

https://github.com/Thecoolsim/French-Scrabble-ODS8

Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by wongarsu on Thursday December 12, 2024 @08:21PM (#42405155)
Scrolled to a random position in the file, and there's 37 lines of all declinations of the word "monologue". Followed by a bunch of nouns with just two to four forms, followed by 47 declinations of the word "monopolise".

What he did is no small feat. You still have to memorize which suffixes are possible in which verbs (there are rules he would pick up on, but there are exceptions to the rules). But it is made easier by French verbs having a lot of possible suffixes, those suffixes being fairly regular, and English taking a lot of its "fancy" words with French (or adopting a Latin version that's close to what French adopted from Latin).

I still couldn't come close to thinking about achieving it. He is doing the extreme sport version of scrabble for sure.

And these advantages in French make it even more impressive that he could do the same even in Spanish.

Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by Asraelite on Friday December 13, 2024 @02:09AM (#42406539)
I actually don't think the exceptions are much of a problem overall. Most irregularities in a language happen with the most common words. Once you go from learning the most common words to simply learning all the words, the relative frequency of irregular formations that you encounter would go down dramatically.
Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by BurningFrog on Thursday December 12, 2024 @10:46PM (#42405769)
98% of those words are useless for competitive Scrabble.
Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by zem on Friday December 13, 2024 @12:11AM (#42406081)
he knows them anyway
Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by teractiveodular on Thursday December 12, 2024 @07:24PM (#42404821)
The strings are neither random nor independent. There are many English cognates, groups of related words, patterns of word formation, etc.

It's still an insane feat, since it typically takes actual language learners years to get anywhere close to a native speaker's inventory of 10,000+ words.

Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by michaelt on Thursday December 12, 2024 @07:56PM (#42405003)
Many players do indeed memorise groups of related words and patterns of word formation.

But Nigel Richards? He's on another level: https://youtu.be/35rqRFXPWJo?t=143 knowing even exceptions to patterns and differences between dictionaries, for 9-letter words, in a game where players only have 7 letter-tiles.

Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by BarryMilo on Thursday December 12, 2024 @08:10PM (#42405091)
I guess he really is a world champion!
Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by brookst on Friday December 13, 2024 @09:27AM (#42408678)
“Patterns” is the key there. Knowing that *OOD has 6ish options is more useful than memorizing each word.
Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by YawningAngel on Thursday December 12, 2024 @07:53PM (#42404989)
Depends which language learners. There are people who can learn 50 new words a day for months, but those people are rare and there feats are probably not replicable for most of us.

https://isaak.net/mandarin/ is an example

edit: Isaak is great, but it was 22 words per day not 50

Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by latentsea on Friday December 13, 2024 @02:13AM (#42406557)
My pace is typically 35 words a day when learning languages and most people think that's insane. It's still only around 1000 a month, which is why I chose that number. That's on the order of 12k a year if you don't miss a single day, which you usually do.

The claim here is memorizing a full dictionary in 9 weeks. That has to be at least 40,000 words in 63 days. 634 words per day. And then or forgetting it.

It's beyond rare. Its alien.

Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by rightbyte on Friday December 13, 2024 @02:51AM (#42406726)
Have you learnt many languages? I wish I had the energy to wanna do it.

In school 35 words a day would be really pushing it for me. It had a really hard time learning English words. I had to study like an hour for 20 words to pass the test. But I learned grammar really fast.

Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by latentsea on Friday December 13, 2024 @03:28AM (#42406878)
Japanese, Chinese and Korean. Fluent in Japanese, can watch kdrama and mostly follow along and have basic conversations in Korean, forgot virtually all the Chinese I did but I managed to pass HSK2 after 2 months of study and then HSK3 the following month. I was only in China for 3 months on a work trip, so I thought I'd have some fun.
Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by upmind on Friday December 13, 2024 @07:49AM (#42408020)
What do you use to learn different languages? Firstly, where you get your vocabulary from but also pronunciation and grammar?
Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by latentsea on Friday December 13, 2024 @03:38PM (#42412143)
Anki, Netflix, Preply and social clubs.

I start by front loading all the grammar study up to upper-intermediate level as fast as possible. Usually a premade Anki deck of a few thousand sentences will be available for this.

Vocab I pick up from native media. I just read or watch whatever I'm interested in, lookup words as I go and put them into Anki. I do full immersion and it works well as access to entertainment in my target languages is a key goal.

Pronunciation I pick up through a crap tonne of exposure to native media.

Conversation is through a combination of private tutoring and finding people who speak my target languages to hang out with.

Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by mb7733 on Saturday December 14, 2024 @01:42AM (#42415146)
That's fairly different though, he doesn't need to learn the definitions, just memorize the strings. Which is still unbelievable.
Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by latentsea on Friday December 13, 2024 @02:03AM (#42406506)
Native speakers have an inventory on the order of 30,000 ~ 40,000 words, and it takes them 30 years for their vocab to reach its peak. I had an Anki deck I built up over a 2 year period containing 17.5k vocab for Japanese and I would still frequently encounter words I didn't know.

If you don't actually know the meanings of the words, they may as well be random. What do you have to remember them by if you have no meaning to attach to them?

It's not even an insane feat. It's inhuman.

Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by Towaway69 on Friday December 13, 2024 @02:38AM (#42406664)
Inhuman might be going too far since it would imply Nigel Richards isn’t human. <End pedantic rant>

Also if one takes character patterns (which words are) and attach other characteristics, such as number of occurrences of individual characters or use ascii numbering to convert to numbers, then these character patterns (aka words) might be simpler to memorise.

Meaning is only necessary if you intend to speak the language.

Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by latentsea on Friday December 13, 2024 @03:24AM (#42406862)
Well he sure ain't a regular human.

If you're applying mnemonics to remember things then the act of doing so also takes time and energy. The issue here is the volume of information in the stated time span.

Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by Towaway69 on Friday December 13, 2024 @04:23AM (#42407161)
It’s certainly an amazing feat and it demonstrates what humans can actually do if they set their minds to it.

Just a pity that there are so many regular humans.

Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by latentsea on Friday December 13, 2024 @06:50AM (#42407766)
I don't think it really demonstrates what humans can do if they can put their mind to it. I think it demonstrates what a 1 in 8 billion type edge case looks like.
Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by brookst on Friday December 13, 2024 @10:22AM (#42409231)
Yeah, likely an outlier for hardware acceleration, just like some people are insanely good at reconizing faces they saw once 20 years ago. That’s not cognitive load, that’s specialized parts of the brain performing far better than most people.
Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by Towaway69 on Friday December 13, 2024 @10:56AM (#42409680)
A world where human intelligence made such rapid process as CPUs. Stuff of science fiction.
Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by Towaway69 on Friday December 13, 2024 @10:54AM (#42409672)
Imagine if that’s the norm though. I doubt very much we would be wondering how to get to Mars.

Also Nigel Richards probably doesn’t spend much time watching Netflix or shopping on Amazon. Probably very much focussed on scrambling.

A world where one in eight billion binge watches Netflix would truly be an interesting world!

Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by latentsea on Friday December 13, 2024 @03:40PM (#42412156)
Apparently he doesn't own a computer. Imagine a world where none of us owned computers!
Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by nkrisc on Thursday December 12, 2024 @07:10PM (#42404750)
Some just have different brains. I think most people could not do that no matter how hard they tried, but with billions of people some just can.
Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by Onavo on Thursday December 12, 2024 @07:18PM (#42404787)
It's not as hard as you think, he's an English speaker and French and English shares approximately 40% of the vocabulary. And once you have mastered French, you have the other 80% needed for Spanish as it's a Latin language like French.
Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by recursive on Thursday December 12, 2024 @07:31PM (#42404865)
How hard do you think I think it is? Are you implying that it's easy for an English speaker to master the English scrabble word list?
Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by bee_rider on Thursday December 12, 2024 @07:50PM (#42404980)
Well, I think it is impossible, so the comment works for me.

And I refuse to update my priors to account for the fact that somebody did it. Because I can’t even memorize the English scrabble dictionary well enough to enjoy playing. I am happier to live in a universe in which Scrabble is just impossible.

Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by latentsea on Friday December 13, 2024 @02:17AM (#42406572)
For the stated time frame, it's definitely as hard as you think, and then much, much, much harder.
Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by vunderba on Thursday December 12, 2024 @07:25PM (#42404825)
The "sorcery" you're looking for is the correct genetic sequences that leads to an eidetic memory. No amount of compensation using mnemonic devices and memory palaces will get you even close to what Nigel Richards is capable of.
Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by tshaddox on Thursday December 12, 2024 @07:46PM (#42404951)
Eh, I bet he’s using some normal Latin vocabulary and orthography skills too. I suspect he wouldn’t do quite at well memorizing a truly random set of combinations of 26 symbols.
Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by zeroonetwothree on Thursday December 12, 2024 @08:39PM (#42405238)
Right it’s not random that it was French, and not, say, Russian.
Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by dmurray on Friday December 13, 2024 @02:33AM (#42406638)
You say that, but there are some world-class Scrabble players from Thailand who play Scrabble in English, a language with a completely different alphabet and orthography from their native tongue. They don't necessarily speak English well, either. One beat Nigel Richards for the World Championship in 2009 [0].

I think it would take Richards about 20 minutes to learn the Cyrillic alphabet and a few weeks to get familiar enough with the patterns of Russian to be a competitive player in that language. World champion is obviously a harder ask, but I wouldn't rule it out.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakorn_Nemitrmansuk

Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by borski on Friday December 13, 2024 @10:05AM (#42409054)
Sounds like his next challenge.
Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by thrance on Thursday December 12, 2024 @07:37PM (#42404899)
Genetic, or epigenetic!
Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by lupire on Thursday December 12, 2024 @07:19PM (#42404794)
Most of the points are in bonuses and bongos, so you don't have to care much about the short words with common letters.
Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by jjayj on Thursday December 12, 2024 @08:06PM (#42405063)
Will Anderson, another Scrabble champion/grandmaster, uploaded a video talking about Nigel's win here. The win is a lot more impressive than memorizing bingoes - Spanish scrabble has different letter distributions and point values, resulting in different metas. He didn't just memorize the Spanish Scrabble dictionary - he learned how to play Spanish Scrabble and dominated the first Spanish tournament he participated in.

Definitely worth a watch if you're interested in Scrabble at all: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RvNxkQ6Bgs

Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by vunderba on Thursday December 12, 2024 @07:32PM (#42404876)
In fact, you do need to care about the short words.

1. they can be useful at locking down the board

2. knowing all of the words is necessary to be able to challenge when somebody attempt to play a phony, which, as a native Spanish speaker, you might be even more inclined to try against a non-native speaker.

Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by 0cf8612b2e1e on Thursday December 12, 2024 @07:45PM (#42404948)
Do professional scrabble players use fake words as a strategy? I assumed that (minus the weirdo savant playing in a foreign language), everyone at the professional level has an extensive vocabulary for which it would be difficult to bluff.
Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by vunderba on Thursday December 12, 2024 @08:00PM (#42405030)
It's not super common but if I was playing against somebody who didn't speak the lingua franca I'd probably throw out a couple phonies to test the waters.

The CSW is the official English word list used internationally (outside of the US/Thailand/Canada because we just HAD to be different) and contains over a quarter of a million words. Unless you're at the UPPER OF UPPER ECHELONS, there's a chance a crafty player could slip a phony in by hooking an "S" on the board or some other subtle stem - especially with the pressure of time controls.

Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by numeri on Thursday December 12, 2024 @10:42PM (#42405755)
There was at least one case of someone trying this against Nigel in French, and he got them.
Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by borski on Friday December 13, 2024 @10:08AM (#42409080)
Nigel would catch it.
Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by numeri on Thursday December 12, 2024 @10:40PM (#42405741)
Yes, from what I understand – and they also make mistakes.
Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by michaelt on Friday December 13, 2024 @06:13AM (#42407606)
Scrabble players at world champion level operate at the very edge of what is or isn't a word.

Everyone knows words like "fork", "vogue" and "alligator" but only scrabble players know whether or not "forkier", "defork", "voguier", "voguiest", "alligatored" and "alligate" are real words.

Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by johnmaguire on Thursday December 12, 2024 @07:23PM (#42404811)
In fact, maybe it's better not to think of them!
Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by BurningFrog on Thursday December 12, 2024 @10:47PM (#42405777)
You do need to know all 2 and 3 letter words. After that you cherry pick.
Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by darepublic on Thursday December 12, 2024 @09:06PM (#42405375)
You could cheat with computer too
Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by numeri on Thursday December 12, 2024 @10:41PM (#42405744)
Nigel Richards usually outperforms (and is orders of magnitude faster than, at least for the complicated endgames, if I understand correctly) the best computer Scrabble programs.
Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by ta_1138 on Thursday December 12, 2024 @09:31PM (#42405472)
While knowing every possible word is very helpful in scrabble, the most useful, important words for the game will be very different than the words that are useful for speaking the language well. There's many words out there that are going to be almost unusable, as they are low value. So you aren't really going to need all the words, but you want to memorize basically every word that uses the high scoring tiles, and understand how wide the 'gaps' you are leading when you leave high value letters on the board, especially near high scoring, whole word tiles.

So you arent' overestimating how long it takes to memorize words, but how useful having a good, normal vocabulary in the language actually is for being good at scrabble. Go look at guides for English scrabble, and see the words you are trying to memorize.

Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by Panzer04 on Thursday December 12, 2024 @11:55PM (#42406015)
Be that as it may, Nigel Richards (the scrabble star in this story) apparently knows virtually every word regardless, and fairly minimal study (supposedly).
Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by BurningFrog on Thursday December 12, 2024 @10:43PM (#42405759)
It would be interesting to determine how few words a Scrabble program needs to know to be a world class player!
Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by brookst on Friday December 13, 2024 @10:58AM (#42409703)
It will be probabilistic, because of the randomness of the draw. More words = greater chance of high scoring words for this board and draw. It likely wouldn’t take many words at all to beat a workd class player 1% of the time, and a pretty substantial vocabulary to win 99% of the time.

Actually, 99% may not even be achievable because sometimes your opponent will just luck out with letters and board lineup.

Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by ASUfool on Friday December 13, 2024 @12:59PM (#42410782)
Sorry, but you do not *want to "basically memorize every word that uses the high scoring tiles." Rather, you want to study the low-scoring tile-filled words because those are more likely to be found on one's rack.

A key to high-scoring games is scoring "bingos" or using all 7 letters in a rack in a single turn as it gives a 50 point bonus. This is why we're taught to memorize the word lists that have such letters as TISANE in them as that string combines with most every other letter to make a bingo. The letters in TISANE are 1 point each.

You also don't want to leave vowels (all of which are worth 1 point each) adjacent to the bonus squares. A parallel play with an I under/to the right of a triple-letter-square can easily score 62 if one puts a Q on the triple and another I to make QI both ways.

Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by 1209412comb on Friday December 13, 2024 @12:59AM (#42406259)
How fast he was able to achieve this is amazing, but you probably can already do this with Chinese characters ( I assume you are from a Latin based language ), and even intuit how radicals combine into a character.
Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by latentsea on Friday December 13, 2024 @03:30AM (#42406896)
Nope? Not at that pace anyway. At a fast pace for a human, yes, but not at 60x faster than "fast".
Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by stevage on Friday December 13, 2024 @02:32AM (#42406632)
It's a tiny bit easier town that in that if you learn a tiny bit of grammar you can extrapolate sets of reloted words where you add an extra E or S or both.
Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by sionisrecur on Friday December 13, 2024 @10:16AM (#42409172)
Avoid trying to make sense of how to write them based on how they sound seems like a start.
Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by DontchaKnowit on Friday December 13, 2024 @10:22AM (#42409232)
mneumonic devices. 'memory palace' techniques. Currently learning spanish using this and it is pretty absurdly effective. Definitely couldn't do 40k words in 9 weeks, but obviously im a rank novice and this dude is a pro. But yeah I've memorized probably 2k words, their meanings, and their idiomatic usages in about 90 days using a program called learncraft spanish that uses mneumonic devices.
Re:Scrabble star wins Spanish world title – despite not spea... by mmmore on Friday December 13, 2024 @01:12PM (#42410889)
Reportedly, by reading through the list twice and then reciting it to himself on bike rides.[1]

[1] https://youtu.be/T-8NrvVqbT4?si=u797T9o1E-R8TL6J