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Re:We all took the DVD boom era for granted by p0w3n3d on Wednesday December 11, 2024 @04:25AM (#42386166)
I still prefer to own movies I like and I have many of them. (no, not SO many as YOU have, my adversary). I think that having them will allow me one day to stop paying constantly more and more expensive subscriptions.

By the way, for me, the DVD standard was very strange. I think that the engineering industry works differently than IT/CS guys. They think of "a product" which consists of the medium AND the "protocol" i.e. file format in this case, and they are inseparable in their (engineers') heads.

When new codecs were created, the DVD could have been enhanced in terms of better quality, as normal DivX would allow maximally better quality on 4.7G (instead of 7GB available to DVD publisher). But when I am watching DVDs I find the low quality disturbing, and playing the interlaced movies (Futurama for example) without a decent player makes me nauseous.

I would even think of converting them and storing on my local cloud but without decent player (like Cyberlink which was removing the interlacing) this looks like crap... Also probably today some AI upscaling would be nice... but I think I am asking for too much...

Re:We all took the DVD boom era for granted by dspillett on Wednesday December 11, 2024 @05:41AM (#42386588)
> When new codecs were created, the DVD could have been enhanced in terms of better quality,

That wouldn't work for such a mass market product made by many manufacturers, many of them cutting every corner that they can. Newer codecs often require a bit more power or memory to run so even if there was an upgrade path many players would be locked out of newer discs or disc makers would be forced to put two formas on the disc, one for better players and one for those capable of only the baseline, reducing the amount of space available for actual content.

DVD players, and consumer devices like them, are intended to be “black boxes” to the user, not something that they need to service by applying updates, and there wasn't the connectivity available back then that there is now for that to be done automatically – people would have had to bring something to the machine incurring a distribution cost. This couldn't be “just download and stick it on a USB drive” because many people didn't have much by way of Internet access at all at home, or often didn't even have a computer (or had one that wasn't recent enough to have the fancy new fangled USB thingies, and USB drives weren't the cheap throw-away trinkets they've since become). Remember: the standard was invented in 1995, first available to the public in 1996, and rose to significant adoption in the early 2000s.

You could include the update on the DVDs themselves, but that adds two problems. First there is security/stability: something could accidentally (or maliciously) brick the user device. Second is compatibility: they would have to constrain the hardware options considerably, rather than it being “anything that can run this codec” many more implementation details would need to be fixed in the standard. You also run into the earlier problem: there is a limit imposed by the lowest common denominator in hardware, either you have to dictate better hardware in the standard which makes things more expensive for the public (that would have massively slowed the early adoption) or you are only adding a little flexibility not enough for the process to be worthwhile.

Re:We all took the DVD boom era for granted by Ekaros on Wednesday December 11, 2024 @04:33AM (#42386220)
It is perfectly sensible to consider data and medium to be single product when you cannot update the software running on products that read it. It was not great sell to tell people to go get new player each time new codec was released. Or tell that these new movies do not work anymore. Have to remember that DVD was released in pre-always-connected world.
Re:We all took the DVD boom era for granted by eru on Wednesday December 11, 2024 @04:52AM (#42386329)
You could stick the codec on the DVD itself? They are relatively small programs.
Re:We all took the DVD boom era for granted by Ekaros on Wednesday December 11, 2024 @05:02AM (#42386383)
Well yes, on other hand there is also hardware acceleration case which make lot of sense when you are manufacturing devices at scale.

And with codec. What code it is in? For what architecture or operating system? What is system constraints it has to operate in? Do you have some specification? Do you need to due something beyond it for new codec.

And from security viewpoint running some arbitrary code from disk sounds like questionable idea. Specially for say pc or console...

Re:We all took the DVD boom era for granted by robinsonb5 on Wednesday December 11, 2024 @05:30AM (#42386524)
> Well yes, on other hand there is also hardware acceleration case which make lot of sense when you are manufacturing devices at scale.

This. In those days any general-purpose CPU with enough grunt to do realtime software decoding of MPEG2 and hypothetical newer codecs would have needed a fan - which would have been a dealbreaker for a living-room appliance.

Re:We all took the DVD boom era for granted by liotier on Wednesday December 11, 2024 @05:25AM (#42386500)
Easy: ship source code and the whole compiler toolchain, also in source form, with bootstrapping instructions for a generic machine that future archaeologists will trivially port to whatever architecture is in vogue in year 32768 !

Joke aside, this question is close to the file format obsolescence problem in long term digital preservation: the longer the term, the closer to bootstrapping the answer is.

In the shorter term, detailed metadata, widely used containers and choice of codecs that have well-known open source implementations is a good start.

Re:We all took the DVD boom era for granted by smolder on Wednesday December 11, 2024 @05:15AM (#42386443)
The solution of the day would have been to put a .jar on each disc and it would have been a nightmare, I think.
Re:We all took the DVD boom era for granted by thrw42A8N on Wednesday December 11, 2024 @05:38AM (#42386560)
There's a JAR on every SIM and payment card and it works fine.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_Card

Re:We all took the DVD boom era for granted by YurgenJurgensen on Wednesday December 11, 2024 @05:53AM (#42386629)
That Java runs on the SIM, not on the AP. The DVD equivalent would be the Java running on the DVD itself, but a DVD is an inert plastic and aluminium sandwich. And even if it looks portable, it’s not. In practice there’s just enough quirks that code written for one Java Card won’t reliably install and run on all others. Actually portable Java Card that would work like DVD codecs would need to work didn’t come until eSIMs, which is decades later.
Re:We all took the DVD boom era for granted by bobdvb on Thursday December 12, 2024 @08:01AM (#42398783)
SIM cards are doing relatively basic transactional crypto functions, not processing many Mbps of data in real time.
Re:We all took the DVD boom era for granted by everfrustrated on Wednesday December 11, 2024 @06:20AM (#42386743)
Pretty sure bluray did something like this - some sort of java app definition that gets executed to display menus and the like.
Re:We all took the DVD boom era for granted by smolder on Wednesday December 11, 2024 @11:50AM (#42389744)
For menus it makes sense. For compression schemes I see a lot of downside, mainly inefficiency of hardware.
Re:We all took the DVD boom era for granted by jasode on Wednesday December 11, 2024 @06:29AM (#42386783)
>You could stick the codec on the DVD itself? They are relatively small programs.

Consumer DVD players have (cheaper) ASICs for hardware-decoding of MPEG. The algorithm to decode is literally burned into the chip. It wouldn't have made economic sense for manufacturers to pay extra for general-purpose CPUs such as x86/ARM/MIPS to enable future scenarios of loading & executing arbitrary code from discs.

Re:We all took the DVD boom era for granted by paxys on Wednesday December 11, 2024 @06:04AM (#42386672)
That would mean letting the disk execute arbitrary code on your machine. No way that ends well.
Re:We all took the DVD boom era for granted by fidotron on Wednesday December 11, 2024 @10:19AM (#42388619)
Bluray does this. And it has network support as an option.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BD-J

Admittedly not for codecs at least.

Re:We all took the DVD boom era for granted by pavlov on Wednesday December 11, 2024 @08:40AM (#42387572)
When the DVD format was new, a 300MHz Pentium II CPU could just barely decode the MPEG-2 stream. And that CPU cost almost two thousand dollars at launch:

https://www.cnet.com/tech/tech-industry/pentium-ii-release-d...

In other words, there was simply no way to ship affordable DVD players that would use a general purpose CPU for video decoding. It needed to be in hardware.

Re:We all took the DVD boom era for granted by layer8 on Wednesday December 11, 2024 @01:25PM (#42390968)
At least in the earlier years, DVD players had dedicated decoder chips (and often still have now I believe), because general-purpose CPUs weren’t powerful enough or else too expensive at the time. So there wasn’t a software codec you could upgrade.
Re:We all took the DVD boom era for granted by DoctorOetker on Wednesday December 11, 2024 @05:42AM (#42386594)
could have been accommodated by putting executable codec files ON the DVD.

A good brand would buffer compute and memory capacity by a decent factor at time of sale in order to support future codecs needs...

Re:We all took the DVD boom era for granted by Cumpiler69 on Wednesday December 11, 2024 @05:52AM (#42386624)
>could have been accommodated by putting executable codec files ON the DVD

You probably don't want that kind of capability since it ends up being used for nefarious purposes by the rights holders and media companies.

For example the keys on your BluRay player can be revoked just by playing a BluRay disc, as the drive first reads the code on the disc and executes the appropriate code to "update" your player according to the wishes of the DRM overlords. It's a very anti-consumer feature. Sony was also distributing their music CDs with rootkits to try to prevent piracy.

I think VHS and Laserdisc were better since they had little DRM and you could freely rewind and view whatever parts you want at your own discretion. The advent of tech also meant the advent of anti-user DRM that dictate how the (paying!) user must enjoy the content.

Re:We all took the DVD boom era for granted by aspenmayer on Wednesday December 11, 2024 @04:32PM (#42393219)
> For example the keys on your BluRay player can be revoked just by playing a BluRay disc, as the drive first reads the code on the disc and executes the appropriate code to "update" your player according to the wishes of the DRM overlords. It's a very anti-consumer feature.

Thanks for mentioning this. The LibreDrive firmware is specifically designed to address this and other issues.

Re:We all took the DVD boom era for granted by michaelt on Wednesday December 11, 2024 @06:22AM (#42386753)
> A good brand would buffer compute and memory capacity by a decent factor at time of sale in order to support future codecs needs...

The problem is a physical media format absolutely cannot afford to gain a reputation for not playing.

You see, if stores accept returns for opened DVDs? People can buy a DVD movie, watch it, then return it for a refund.

But if stores don't accept returns for opened DVDs? If I paid two hours' wages for that DVD, it doesn't play, and they won't give me a refund? I'm going to be mad about being ripped off, and I'm going to complain a lot.

Re:We all took the DVD boom era for granted by goosedragons on Wednesday December 11, 2024 @06:22AM (#42386754)
How would that work? DVDs are playable on hundreds of devices with different architectures and capabilities. You could play a DVD on your MIPS based PS2, x86 based Xbox, PowerPC based Mac etc. And early on a hardware card was necessary for many devices because they weren't fast enough to decode in software.
Re:We all took the DVD boom era for granted by p0w3n3d on Wednesday December 11, 2024 @04:27AM (#42386182)
Also, DVD is still a standard in medical imaging, which baffles me, because many people do not own drives anymore, but I think this is as close to "owning your own test results" as possible. I cannot imagine someone saying "sorry, you have not extended your subscription to our health-cloud and your results are gone"
Re:We all took the DVD boom era for granted by lukan on Wednesday December 11, 2024 @04:34AM (#42386226)
They could offer you a download link, that is valid for 10 days. Or since storage is cheap, stays valid.

But why change a running system (and I have an external USB DVD device).

Re:We all took the DVD boom era for granted by no92 on Wednesday December 11, 2024 @05:02AM (#42386385)
Depending on the jurisdiction, the minimum required storage time for medical data varies - but it needs to be kept around usually. Patients can, within that time frame, request that data to be provided, but may be required to pay some fee to cover the material costs. In my jurisdiction, this time frame is 10 years, and radiology data is usually provided as a paper slip with a link and password, valid for 1-2 years, or DVDs on request.

Keeping that data around and managing requests for it is a part of why older physicians are so keen to sell their practices to younger doctors here - they can pass on the duty of keeping up with storing the data that way.

Re:We all took the DVD boom era for granted by zxexz on Wednesday December 11, 2024 @05:36AM (#42386551)
FWIW, I'm in a jurisdiction with a 10 year retention requirement, and also have had no issues getting imaging data from beyond that (on DVD, of course - one department even had a side hustle selling external DVD drives for $50 on the side; they even offered to drop the files onto a USB drive for free).
Re:We all took the DVD boom era for granted by smolder on Wednesday December 11, 2024 @05:26AM (#42386505)
Offering USB flash versions would make sense, too, given the low cost presently. There's probably a market for write-once flash drives.
Re:We all took the DVD boom era for granted by ta1243 on Wednesday December 11, 2024 @09:29AM (#42388020)
If it stays valid that's a security nightmare

People are very good as securing physical items. They are awful at securing files.

A dvd or maybe an SD card or USB stick is a much better approach.

Re:We all took the DVD boom era for granted by kjkjadksj on Friday December 13, 2024 @01:02PM (#42410810)
There is some utility unique to the dvd imo. It seems way more secure to me if another practitioner is just being handed a dvd direct from the imaging dept by the patient, compared to an emailed link that could be cloned in phishing attempts hospitals get. Anyone who expects to look at these images probably has a disk drive. It is kind of better than a thumb drive because its cheaper to make for the hospital but also can sit in a folder with other paperwork nicer than any thumb drive.
Re:We all took the DVD boom era for granted by soulofmischief on Wednesday December 11, 2024 @04:33AM (#42386219)
When I was 15 I discovered that my local doctor lost all of my medical records. Poof, all gone. Whoops, next patient please. My last doctor no longer had a copy of my files, either.

I had to receive all of my vaccinations again over two sessions before attending public school.

Re:We all took the DVD boom era for granted by liontwist on Wednesday December 11, 2024 @06:30AM (#42386789)
Now instead of losing a yellow folder, a system will lose 1 million people’s records all at once.

Aren’t school vaccines registered with the state? Given how many parents cannot keep records, I am surprised the solution would be “get them again”.

Re:We all took the DVD boom era for granted by bluGill on Wednesday December 11, 2024 @10:58AM (#42389056)
Offsite backup needs to always be the answer. Fires have always been a concern in any human situation. Plus lots of other accidents.

Of course the real hard part is how do you mark a record as do not restore anymore. In a medical context this isn't much a problem, but in other cases it is an issue.

Re:We all took the DVD boom era for granted by DoctorOetker on Wednesday December 11, 2024 @05:44AM (#42386599)
did you by chance undergo any operation you never consented too?
Re:We all took the DVD boom era for granted by galleywest200 on Wednesday December 11, 2024 @10:33AM (#42388782)
It is worth noting that a lot of people DO own DVD and Blu-Ray drives still - they are just stuck inside of gaming consoles.
Re:We all took the DVD boom era for granted by theandrewbailey on Wednesday December 11, 2024 @11:20AM (#42389342)
Game consoles are starting to come without optical drives.
Re:We all took the DVD boom era for granted by gruturo on Wednesday December 11, 2024 @10:46AM (#42388913)
It makes complete sense. It's literally pennies for them, esp. when bought in bulk, it's read-only (more or less), and most importantly it absolves them of any responsibility regarding handing you some very sensitive personal data. No credentials, cloud service, hacking, leak, etc etc. They hand you a physical object and that's it. It's your problem now.

A pendrive would work almost as well but too many people likely would accidentally reformat them, add data and mix them up, claim they got a virus from them (which they maybe did, when their 8yo nephew clicked everything looking for big boobs online, not because of the doctor. But now the doctor has to prove the virus on the pendrive was added later? Just hand the patient a DVD really).

Re:We all took the DVD boom era for granted by arp242 on Wednesday December 11, 2024 @05:14AM (#42386437)
How would that realistically work? Because "just use a new codec" would mean you'd end up with old DVD players not being able to play newer DVDs, and a very frustrating transition period.

They would be different incompatible discs. That is: a different standard.

Re:We all took the DVD boom era for granted by bluGill on Wednesday December 11, 2024 @11:01AM (#42389098)
Call it blu-ray because that is what it is. If you just want a new codec with the same media you need some DVD2 label and get DVD player manufacturers onboard with the new spec so that players are common before the first disc. Also because consumers are not happy about replacing their DVD players all the time you have to not create new specs too often. (or perhaps you can have a standard decoder cartridge which can be put into your existing DVD players and sells for $5 thus making upgrading to DVD3 not a big deal). there are lots of options, but the point is always don't make it too hard for consumers to know their DVDs and drives are compatible.
Re:We all took the DVD boom era for granted by bobdvb on Thursday December 12, 2024 @08:07AM (#42398821)
There were TVs made that you could upgrade the processor on, they were more expensive and never took off. People want cheap, they'll forgo the better product if they can get one that's on sale cheap. Consumer choice says that an upgradable product sells worse and the company that makes the upgradeable models will get the lowest market share. You'd have to legislate modularity and then you get people complaining about government over reach.
Re:We all took the DVD boom era for granted by Lammy on Wednesday December 11, 2024 @02:14PM (#42391569)
> When new codecs were created, the DVD could have been enhanced in terms of better quality

Relevant dead ends:

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Definition_Versatile_Disc

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Versatile_Multilayer_Disc

Re:We all took the DVD boom era for granted by commandlinefan on Thursday December 12, 2024 @12:34PM (#42401271)
> I still prefer to own movies

It's looking like it's going to be harder and harder to find a physical DVD _player_, though. When the one you have breaks down, you may not be able to buy a replacement.