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Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by gerdesj on Saturday December 07, 2024 @08:07PM (#42354179)
What a beauty! Its been rebuilt (restored is a tricky concept here) in largely the same materials and in the same form as the original, prior to various restoration efforts through the centuries, with a few knobs on.

This means that we get a mediaeval cathedral looking like it did when it was conceived and built (with an extra spire and a few other things). The colours are amazing.

Elderly churches, mosques and temples (int al) have a habit of losing their original colours and "feel" across the centuries. They change - age. Stone walls age and thanks to modern pollution darken. Pigments age, disperse and peel off.

Notre Dame has been restored. Not to how it was in 2018, prior the fire ... but to how it was intended when built, with a bit of sympathetic interpretation.

Well done!

Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by nntwozz on Saturday December 07, 2024 @08:41PM (#42354325)
Ship of Theseus comes to mind.
Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by highcountess on Saturday December 07, 2024 @09:43PM (#42354635)
That is not really applicable here. The cathedral itself was never really destroyed even though the Christian rejectors’ mob ransacked it in the “French” Revolution and the latest fire also did not really cause structural damage.

It is also still a functioning Christian church with services.

Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by akerl_ on Saturday December 07, 2024 @10:57PM (#42354924)
The ship of Theseus was never really destroyed either. It was a functional ship with services.
Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by anon291 on Saturday December 07, 2024 @10:25PM (#42354811)
I mean it's a living church. The entire thing can be rebuilt and it will still be the real Notre Dame de Paris. It'd have to stop being used for the original function.

Similar to how the California missions that are still parishes will continue to be complete. The ones that are museums will deteriorate.

The beauty of a building is more than just its physical materials but also those things for which it was built and those people who built it

Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by akerl_ on Saturday December 07, 2024 @10:58PM (#42354928)
> The entire thing can be rebuilt and it will still be the real Notre Dame de Paris

This statement is kindof the whole point of the "ship of Theseus" thought experiment.

Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by Sebb767 on Sunday December 08, 2024 @12:14AM (#42355159)
A more favorable interpretation would be that the church consists of more than just its worldly parts; its place and use are also part of its identity. Even if you'd completely rebuild the church building, the other parts of its identity would persist. Therefore, the "ship of Theuses" argument doesn't apply, as, in this case, we would never replace all parts of [the identity of] this church.
Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by akerl_ on Sunday December 08, 2024 @06:04AM (#42356462)
It feels like you’re referring to the “ship of Theseus” as an argument that the identity does not persist…

It’s not.

It’s a hypothetical designed to call attention to the exact thing you’re saying: that potentially identity is more than the specific physical parts.

Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by anon291 on Sunday December 08, 2024 @01:25AM (#42355356)
I gave my differentiating factor..

Yes it's my take on the ship of Theseus problem.

In that problem we re asked to consider if a ship with all it's parts replaced is the same as the original..

My argument is that so long as the ship is being used for the same purpose by the same people then it is. Without a purpose, wood in the shape of a ship is not even necessarily a ship

Things are more than just their physical form.

Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by astrobe_ on Sunday December 08, 2024 @03:57AM (#42355940)
Our own bodies are ships of Theseus. I've read once that every atom in our bodies are replaced in 40 years. In 40 years, our bodies change a lot and so are our minds. What make Theseus' ship the ship of Theseus, is that Theseus is the owner of the ship. Ownership is a social convention, a construction of the mind.

What makes Notre Dame, is that people generally agree it is still Notre Dame. If hypothetically we were in a time of modernism craze, and that our government decided to rebuilt it in some modern style (there actually was proposals like that), it would still be the people who makes it Notre Dame de Paris or not.

Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by tsimionescu on Sunday December 08, 2024 @02:37AM (#42355608)
> The entire thing can be rebuilt and it will still be the real Notre Dame de Paris. It'd have to stop being used for the original function.

This is demonstrably wrong, as we have many examples of old buildings and we know what people actually feel about them.

Consider two very famous examples of buildings that completely changed their purpose, but are still the same building: the Pantheon and the Hagia Sophia in Istanbul. The Pantheon was a Roman temple to all of the Gods when it was built in 126, and became a Christian church ~400 years later, but everyone recognizes it as the same building. The Hagia Sophia was a Christian church built in 537, and 1100 years later became an Islamic mosque, but it is still the same building to everyone.

Then for the opposite example: St Peter's Basillica at the Vatican. This was built in 1506 on the site of a much older church, also called St Peter's Basillica (commissioned by emperor Constantine), which also served as a Christian church, was also used the parish of the Pope, was also the location of papal coronation and so on. And still, no one would say "St Peter's Basilica was built by Saint Constantine", because the current basilica is universally recognized as a new building, despite serving the same function.

A building is recognized for the beauty and specifics of its structural and painterly elements, not for its role. If it is destroyed and rebuilt in almost the same size and shape, then it is recognized as the same building; regardless of entirely changing its purpose.

Conversely, if a building is rebuilt into a completely different shape, even a universally admired as beautiful one, it is considered a different building, even if keeps serving the same purpose.

Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by anon291 on Sunday December 08, 2024 @09:11AM (#42357242)
The Pantheon no longer exists. It is now the church of St Mary and the Martyrs. And this is the difference I'm getting at.

The Pantheon is a temple dedicated to all the ancient Roman gods. It cannot be both that and the Church of St Mary and the Martyrs. When the Church took it over, it ceased to be the Pantheon.

There's no doubt the building is the same, and we can argue about how 'true to form' it is. But that's the point. When it stopped being what it originally was, its 'form' is now a goal to never deviate from.

Whereas, the various depictions of the martyrs present within the Church of St Mary and the Martyrs, for example, has no such ideal yet. The Church can (and does) shift that around. However, if it were to stop being the church of st Mary and the Martyrs, then it would have an ideal form that any restorer may want to restore it towards.

Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by tsimionescu on Sunday December 08, 2024 @12:19PM (#42358399)
You could try doing a search for the Pantheon vs the Church of St Mary and the Martyrs to see which is alive in the general consciousness and which isn't. Ultimately, the Pantheon is not a temple to the Roman gods, it's a particular building in Rome. It used to be a temple, now it's a church, maybe 100 years from now it will be an exhibition space. It will still be the same building. And the building is far more culturally important then the current parish inhabiting it.
Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by matt-attack on Sunday December 08, 2024 @01:49PM (#42359239)
For what’s its worth, this conversation has been a treat to read. Not sure who I agree with.
Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by wahern on Monday December 09, 2024 @05:45AM (#42364876)
IMO, they're both right, but for anon291's reasons. tsimionescu's perception of The Pantheon is reflective of a shared cultural consciousness, albeit one that's cosmopolitan and intellectual. He and anon291 (maybe) see different buildings because they either have different cultural perspectives--i.e. perhaps anon291 is a practicing Catholic (or esoteric pagan?)--or at least anon291 is cognizant that many people would see a space with a meaning quite distinct than tsimionescu's. The Hagi Sophia is great example--most foreigners see one building, local Eastern Orthodox see another, and local Muslims a third.

It's difficult, if not impossible, for people to see architectural spaces in the way an animal or alien might see them. Even when the culture which built it is totally alien or unknown, that basic fact, plus the context in which it is seen by the observer (including how they arrived there), as well as typical architectural features (e.g. steps) imbue it with meaning that color everything about it. Our whole world is like that. Take, for example, a stop sign--we simply can't perceive that object, at least without effort, without the culturally imbued meaning. It's not just a red & white octagon with shapes in the middle; the meaning vastly overshadows its raw physical properties.

Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by scientist4397 on Sunday December 08, 2024 @06:19PM (#42361598)
You’ll have to wait a long time to think about it, lot of materials of the cathédrale are originals (especially the stones)
Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by bane on Saturday December 07, 2024 @09:54PM (#42354690)
The videos I've seen of the people who did this remarkable work show such a sense of pride, as they should have. It's an amazing testament that France was able to do this work, relatively quickly, in traditional ways. Maintaining that kind of expertise on the scale needed is astonishing.
Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by brabel on Sunday December 08, 2024 @01:41AM (#42355416)
I was wondering exactly about that: how did they keep this expertise? Even in France, I don't think anyone is building medieval-style buildings anymore. Is the work done in restaurations enough to keep the know-how for actually building things almost from scracth?
Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by mahkeiro on Sunday December 08, 2024 @02:03AM (#42355497)
It may surprise you but people are still building medieval castle in France: https://www.guedelon.fr/en/ (youtube has numerous video from them showing medieval technics of building) And France keep some of the building tradition through something called "compagnonnage" https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compagnonnage (sry but there no en page for this article).
Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by skywal_l on Sunday December 08, 2024 @04:41AM (#42356135)
Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by realusername on Sunday December 08, 2024 @02:52AM (#42355678)
The answer is simple, there's an endless amount of churches and castles to maintain in France, so many of them that it's actually impossible to maintain them all. As long as the state cares about maintainance, there's going to be jobs for it.
Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by Neonlicht on Sunday December 08, 2024 @07:11AM (#42356685)
I know that the bells were made in the Netherlands- which has a long history with church bells.
Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by chiph on Sunday December 08, 2024 @09:12AM (#42357252)
If you're in the US, you can apply to attend the American College of the Building Arts.

https://acba.edu/aboutacba

They were established in Charleston SC after Hurricane Hugo when it was discovered that the US did not have enough craftspeople to repair all the historic homes that had been damaged. You can get an accredited Bachelors degree in architectural ironwork, plastering, timber framing, and stone carving.

Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by kergonath on Sunday December 08, 2024 @03:14AM (#42355777)
> with an extra spire and a few other things

With a different spire. Notre Dame used to have a spire until it was removed early in the 19th century.

> Notre Dame has been restored. Not to how it was in 2018, prior the fire ... but to how it was intended when built, with a bit of sympathetic interpretation.

This is quite important. It was difficult to reconcile texts talking about how gothic cathedrals were full of light and colours with the aspect of a lot of these cathedrals, which felt dark and dull with their walls and windows blackened and covered in grime. The renovated interior is properly breathtaking.

> Well done!

Indeed.

Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by ghaff on Sunday December 08, 2024 @08:41AM (#42357084)
I'll be interested to visit when I'm probably in Paris next spring. Notre Dame always seemed to me more impressive on the outside than the inside where, as you suggest, it felt pretty dark and dull compared to a church like Sainte-Chapelle.
Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by scientist4397 on Sunday December 08, 2024 @06:15PM (#42361576)
Another one to see : Notre Dame de Strasbourg

Darker, different stones but incredible too

Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by prewett on Sunday December 08, 2024 @08:45PM (#42362366)
You can see a contrast in pictures of the Chartres restoration. See [1], 5th picture down. The light areas are the restored, painted areas (if I remember correctly, they carefully scraped off the grime with scalpels to reveal the original paint, although I don't know if they did that for the whole surface or just used that information to scrape it off and repaint it). The dark areas are the unrestored areas.

After 900 years of smoke from burning candles, and an oil furnace in the 20th century, the surface got pretty dark. The restoration was controversial because some people thought that we should either keep the "patina of age" or they thought that the patina was the natural color of the stone.

[1] https://francetoday.com/culture/chartres-the-famous-cathedra...

Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by pcl on Sunday December 08, 2024 @03:36AM (#42355878)
Hopefully a fire detection and suppression system was added along the way!
Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by eastbound on Sunday December 08, 2024 @08:24AM (#42356978)
Well, it survived 700 years without, and it survived the 1960ies where everyone was smoking everywhere, and it survived two revolutions where the police wasn’t active. So a working fire detection system isn’t the problem.

Yeah, I don’t buy the official investigation that concludes with spontaneous combustion.

Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by scientist4397 on Sunday December 08, 2024 @06:17PM (#42361585)
There was already one but I guess an old system as it took quite some times to locate the fire
Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by usrnm on Sunday December 08, 2024 @03:45AM (#42355896)
I'm actually still disappointed that they did not chose some bold and modern solution. France has no shortage of gothic cathedrals, many of which are much more interesting than Notre Dame of Paris, this was a once in a century chance to do something completely new and interesting, and they got cold feet. Such a shame. It's still very good work, but it will forever feel like a missed opportunity to me.
Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by bigstrat2003 on Sunday December 08, 2024 @03:54AM (#42355929)
That would be nothing short of cultural vandalism. It's certainly the prerogative of the French people to do that if they wish, but it would be an awful thing. The world doesn't need more ugly modern buildings.
Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by UberFly on Sunday December 08, 2024 @03:57AM (#42355942)
It was a restoration, not a grand re-imagination. When works of art (like a painting in a museum) are damaged, they restore them to their previous state.
Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by usrnm on Sunday December 08, 2024 @04:15AM (#42356015)
There are very, very few old buildings in the world that haven't been rebuilt and reimagined at least once in their lifetime, for the majority of them the parts that we find most esthetically pleasing are later additions
Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by atombender on Sunday December 08, 2024 @06:43AM (#42356588)
The French government held a design competition [1] [2] to gather proposals for a new spire, so the assumption at the outset was not that it would be a mere restoration.

> “The international competition will allow us to ask the question of whether we should even recreate the spire as it was conceived by Viollet-le-Duc,” [prime minister] Philippe told reporters after a cabinet meeting dedicated to the fire. “Or, as is often the case in the evolution of heritage, whether we should endow Notre Dame with a new spire. This is obviously a huge challenge, a historic responsibility.”

However, the senate passed a bill explicitly requiring that the traditional design must be used [3].

[1] https://www.archdaily.com/916723/the-peoples-notre-dame-cath...

[2] https://www.archdaily.com/915355/france-announces-competitio...

[3] https://archive.ph/HgTvo

Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by cm2187 on Sunday December 08, 2024 @03:51AM (#42355919)
You mean to replace the whole building with a beautiful brutalist structure made of dark concrete?
Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by usrnm on Sunday December 08, 2024 @04:02AM (#42355962)
You know that brutalism is long dead, don't you? At this point it's just a scapegoat, if you cannot see beaty in at least some parts of modern architecture, you clearly haven't been paying attention. Just look at some of the alternative designs for the restoration of Notre Dam and tell me that they're ugly and not interesting
Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by cm2187 on Sunday December 08, 2024 @04:23AM (#42356052)
> You know that brutalism is long dead, don't you?

that's kind of the point with modern architecture. It's at best lame, often outright ugly from day one, and aways never age well. The only merit is that it is made of non-durable materials (concrete, glass and steel), so no one will look down on our civilisation in 800 years since there will be nothing left.

Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by rainworld on Sunday December 08, 2024 @04:29AM (#42356083)
They are hideous and repulsive.
Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by wqaatwt on Sunday December 08, 2024 @05:11AM (#42356253)
You mean things like:

https://www.demilked.com/notre-dame-reconstruction-designs/

?

Because they are actually.. quite revolting. Even by modern standards, pretty disgusting. At that point you might just as well just bulldoze the whole building and put something new entirely there.

Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by iamacyborg on Sunday December 08, 2024 @05:15AM (#42356271)
Many brutalist buildings are beautiful
Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by tgv on Sunday December 08, 2024 @06:23AM (#42356522)
I would like to add that France (probably) also has no shortage of modern churches, quite a few abandoned. There's no reason to build yet another one.
Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by whywhywhywhy on Sunday December 08, 2024 @03:47PM (#42360288)
The grossness of destroying culture aside you’d also be throwing away billions in tourist revenue.

People don’t travel to Paris to see something that looks like a mall.

Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by scientist4397 on Sunday December 08, 2024 @06:22PM (#42361623)
Af French, I’m happy they took that way. Especially many submissions were quite ugly.

I prefer the approach taken at The Louvre and it’s pyramid of glass that is built next to the historical buildings without modifying them and giving a nice mix between history and modernity

Re:The famed Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris reopens to great ... by throwaway48476 on Sunday December 08, 2024 @07:11AM (#42356681)
It was rebuilt to how it was restored in the 1800s, not how it was built in medieval times. It's a mixture of Gothic and neo Gothic.