News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that... by serf on Monday November 11, 2024 @04:13PM (#42110474)
that's the same boiler-plate reason they give for every firing due to an embarrassing mishap.

google 'for loss of trust and confidence in his ability military' and look at the news tab, every embarrassment to a military group gets thrown that bone.

Re:Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that... by hluska on Monday November 11, 2024 @04:21PM (#42110545)
Loss of trust and confidence is huge in military (and adjacent) circles. Many of these roles involve ordering others into situations that are likely fatal.

There’s no boilerplate involved. Trust and confidence are immense in command roles, particularly in a role like CO of a trust and evaluation squadron.

It’s also important to note that the Marine Corps itself did not lose trust in Colonel Del Pizzo - as per this article he was offered follow-on orders of his choice.

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2024/10/31/pilot-of-f-35...

Re:Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that... by Aeolun on Tuesday November 12, 2024 @12:29AM (#42113051)
I think that’s just to make the shafting a little bit softer. You are still being shafted for valuing your own life over an expensive airplane.
Re:Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that... by walrushunter on Tuesday November 12, 2024 @10:52AM (#42116500)
That plane is significantly more valuable to the American people than his life is. That plane cost the entire federal tax bill of 1000 senior software engineers. If he's not willing to risk his life to keep it in the air, he shouldn't be flying it.
Re:Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that... by s1artibartfast on Monday November 11, 2024 @05:40PM (#42111105)
seems reasonable to me. If someone lost a 110 million dollar asset in a questionable way, I wouldn't have trust and confidence in their ability either.

Flying cutting edge military jets isn't exactly a human right.

Re:Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that... by derekp7 on Monday November 11, 2024 @07:17PM (#42111633)
That's all well and good, except the next pilot facing a potential loss of aircraft will probably hesitate (worrying about getting shafted), and keep trying to recover the craft until it is too late. Then you have a crashed plane, and a dead pilot. People make better decisions when there is precident for a no-fault management style.
Re:Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that... by s1artibartfast on Monday November 11, 2024 @07:54PM (#42111863)
That might make sense if you valued the life of a pilot more than an F-35, or even a large number of F-35s, but at the end of the day, that simply isn't true.

Sometimes you will save the jet, sometimes you will lose both. Military policy is not "better safe than sorry". There is some of jets, perhaps less than 1, where it is better to have a dead pilot than an unnecessarily crashed plane.

Re:Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that... by KennyBlanken on Monday November 11, 2024 @07:35PM (#42111752)
No, because he was not fired for ejecting from an unsafe aircraft, which is what you're claiming would be the situation where the pilot would hesitate. He was fired because the General didn't feel he'd shown the judgement and skill commiserate with his station.

The cardinal rule for an in-flight emergency is that if the plane is flying, you're OK in that moment, there's no need to panic.

He was fired because as a test pilot, he panicked after the HUD malfunctioned, and ejected from an aircraft with an hour's worth of fuel that was not losing altitude or experiencing any mechanical failures, and did not make even an attempt to verify his primary instruments against the backup secondaries, or to use a functioning backup radio.

He could have used the backup radio to contact the tower to verify his altitude, speed, heading, rate of climb, etc and then get vectored back to reunite with his wingman ,and followed his wingman in for a landing.

Re:Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that... by Teever on Monday November 11, 2024 @08:22PM (#42112012)
kinda makes you wonder about his opinion on the overall reliability of the F-35 if he made that call.
Re:Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that... by elcritch on Monday November 11, 2024 @10:57PM (#42112677)
From what I read that seems plausible given the pilot was a seasoned test pilot; so it seems odd he was just being panicky.

Imagine just being struck by lightning, loosing main displays, and being at 1200 feet. All on top of flying in a plane with a reputation for electronic failures.

I'd be concerned too that the plane was about to freak out. 1200 ft isn't far.

Re:Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that... by dotancohen on Tuesday November 12, 2024 @04:54AM (#42114177)
2000 hours isn't all that seasoned, and he had less than 50 hours in that type. He was accomplished all right, but not what one would call seasoned.

In fact, the root of the word "seasoned" means "prepared" and he clearly was not prepared for the events leading to this incident. That through no fault of his own, hence he was not formally disciplined.

The Marines expect someone of his position to perform above and beyond their training. He didn't, so he lost that position with no formal discipline.

Re:Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that... by Teever on Tuesday November 12, 2024 @05:29AM (#42114351)
Why are people in other threads saying that he was some sort of expert or that he lost an expert position because of this?
Re:Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that... by datavirtue on Monday November 11, 2024 @11:23PM (#42112790)
This.
Re:Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that... by krisoft on Monday November 11, 2024 @08:34PM (#42112052)
> No, because he was not fired for ejecting from an unsafe aircraft, which is what you're claiming would be the situation where the pilot would hesitate.

That's not quite right. The pilot doesn't have an outside oracle who tells them the truth if their aircraft is beyond saving. They have to make that decision under stressful circumstances and having only partial information about the world. Making that decision, to declare their own previously safe aircraft no longer salvageable in their own head is where the hesitation might happen.

I'm not saying that this was a bad call. The General has much much more information than I do. It is entirely possible that this was so egregious a case, and the plane was so obviously flyable that firing the pilot was the correct decision. I don't know.

What I'm saying is that you can't just say "oh they won't hesitate, because their plane will be unsafe". Because the hesitation (if it happens) happens before they decide that their aircraft is unsafe. Instead they will spend possibly valuable seconds thinking through if they truly have tried everything. If they are perhaps mistaken. If they maybe will lose their jobs because there was something they haven't seen clearly enough, but in the cold harsh light of an investigation will mean that they made a mistake.

Pilots are already heavily biassed against ejections. It is embarrassing, even if it was justified. It is a deviation from the routine. It is potentially deadly, potentially ruinous to their ability to continue flying on health grounds. This might be one more factor now which will bias them against ejecting. I hope the General made the right call.

Re:Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that... by Y_Y on Tuesday November 12, 2024 @04:09AM (#42113941)
> commiserate with his station

I do, but perhaps this was meant to be "commensurate".

Re:Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that... by hindsightbias on Monday November 11, 2024 @09:11PM (#42112202)
Back in the day, a carrier deployment w/o the loss of an aircraft was considered subpar because it was taken as evidence of not pushing the boundaries enough.

Or so I was told by a USN pilot.

Re:Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that... by walrushunter on Tuesday November 12, 2024 @10:43AM (#42116395)
Precisely, the next pilot will not bail out so quickly, saving a $100M plane. Encouraging pilots to exhaust all options before they eject is the entire point.
Re:Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that... by jameshart on Monday November 11, 2024 @06:54PM (#42111513)
On the other hand, the USMC has invested considerable time and effort in training this person to operate the F-35. Replacing him with someone else will take time and money. For the organization that invested all that into him to say ‘nope, we don’t want you to fly these things any more’ is itself a massive waste of resources.
Re:Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that... by s1artibartfast on Monday November 11, 2024 @08:02PM (#42111914)
Sure, that makes sense as a waste if you are operating under the assumption that they have no questions of ability and are simply being railroaded, and will never fly again.

In this case, the pilot is still flying. They are just not leading as prestigious and high risk command, because there are doubts that they suitable. There is no new cost, they are just rotating the roster. he will fly elsewhere and a different pilot will take that role.

It is only a loss if you double down thinking that he was the best or only fit for that role.

Re:Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that... by jki275 on Monday November 11, 2024 @07:29PM (#42111713)
He's certainly a highly trained Naval Aviator, but he had very little time in the F35.
Re:Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that... by the__alchemist on Monday November 11, 2024 @09:27PM (#42112265)
He was fired from command, not stripped of his wings.
Re:Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that... by NBJack on Monday November 11, 2024 @07:36PM (#42111764)
And now you've created yet another layer of FUD for all future pilots.

Shit can and will happen. The only real thing questionable is the damn aircraft.

Do you know how many things have gone wrong with the F-35? [0] It was a shit situation, the book was (unsurprisingly) crap, and you are potentially in a very expensive death trap. The guy choose to live. Honestly, his real mistake may just to have been willing to fly a F-35 in the first place.

[0] https://theweek.com/us-military/1020858/the-f-35-fighter-jet...

Re:Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that... by master_crab on Monday November 11, 2024 @07:04PM (#42111566)
Ehh. While I understand your point, I think we should also ask ourselves if it’s reasonable for a fighter to cost $110m a pop.
Re:Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that... by s1artibartfast on Monday November 11, 2024 @08:12PM (#42111961)
I think that is a fair question. Cheaper would obviously be better, but unless or until they are cheap, they are not disposable.

I think Ukraine is lots of evidence that of how important it is to have air superiority, even at extreme cost. If Russia had gained air superiority as many expected, the war would have been over shortly.

https://mitchellaerospacepower.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/0...

Re:Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that... by wbl on Monday November 11, 2024 @08:12PM (#42111965)
The customer demands the best, because if they do not have it the adversary will have it, and that is unacceptable. Even given that 110 million (assuming current 2024 dollars) is pretty cheap: the Grippen comes in at around that based on Brazilian purchases and is much less capable, being a 1990's design.
Re:Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that... by throwaway2037 on Monday November 11, 2024 @08:43PM (#42112086)
Woah, I could not believe this post, until I looked it up. Wiki says: <<On 24 October 2014, Brazil and Sweden signed a 39.3 billion SEK (US$5.44 bn, R$13 bn) contract for 28 Gripen E (single-seat version) and eight Gripen F (dual-seat version) fighters for delivery from 2019 to 2024 and maintained until 2050>>

That is 150M USD per plane. However, this might include maintenance costs, which would make it different from most F35 purchases that I have seen. Does anyone know any more specific details?

Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_JAS_39_Gripen

Re:Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that... by wbl on Monday November 11, 2024 @08:50PM (#42112124)
I'm not really sure what maintenance costs over that period in a contract look like: certainly getting them down to a number introduces a bunch more risks for someone (inflation etc), and not having them has other risks. Getting numbers here is sadly hard, and I agree my comparison might be not apples to apples.

Even if the flyaway cost of a Grippen is $50 million the number of planes to accomplish the same mission is a lot more, and some of that number will be lives lost. I'm pretty confident it's within half an order of magnitude of F-35 price.

Re:Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that... by s1artibartfast on Monday November 11, 2024 @09:19PM (#42112230)
The wikipedia page lists 9 digit flyaway costs for other Gripen versions, so even if it includes some support, the bulk of the price is the jet.

Edit: 5th generation jets are just incredibly expensive. I can't imagine how mad Turkey was when the US bilked them for their F35s, keeping both the jets and the billions Turkey paid.

Re:Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that... by wbl on Tuesday November 12, 2024 @09:51AM (#42115874)
Shouldn't have planned to let Russia see the radar returns then.
Re:Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that... by s1artibartfast on Tuesday November 12, 2024 @12:04PM (#42117290)
Interesting. My understanding is that the US refused to deliver after Turkey bought S-400 systems from Russia, and will still sell the F-35 to Turkey if they stop. Do the systems share radar returns with mother Russia or what exactly is the concern?

https://web.archive.org/web/20240202005500/https://ca.news.y...

Re:Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that... by wbl on Tuesday November 12, 2024 @10:48PM (#42122724)
Bingo. These systems are not packaged goods, but come with services that depend on getting a lot of the data to improve the system, and it's hard to control how they share. An air defense system is part of a network.
Re:Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that... by lallysingh on Monday November 11, 2024 @07:35PM (#42111758)
A 737-MAX10 costs more, and it's almost all empty space.
Re:Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that... by master_crab on Monday November 11, 2024 @07:55PM (#42111867)
A supertanker costs more and it’s just empty tanks.