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This is not about what Russia is doing. Russia, like the US, is an imperial power that cares little about the rights of other. This is about the US testing how much it can get away with by enroaching on what it mistakenly thought was a much weaker Russia than it turned out. And Ukranians are paying the price in blood, often against their will.
The US supports what benefits them, so I'm sure they were supporting the opposition. Russia was supporting the then president Yanukovych because that was the best for them. That's what countries do.
The protests started when Yanukovych decided to cancel the EU - Ukraine Association Agreement[0] to go do a similar agreement with Russia[1]. Now, while the US might be supporting the opposition, this decision was made by the government supported by Russia in a country that was turning to the EU for a long time (the exception was the Donbas and Crimea)... of course people were going to protest. After what they experienced in the 90's and early 00's, with many working in the EU for a while and seeing it as a better option, are you surprised that many would want to be aligned with the EU?
How do you go from a protest to killing protestors? That I don't know. Are you going to blame the US for the actions of the Russia-backed government? Maybe they were also part of the conspiracy... /s
In any case, this doesn't justify Russia's invasion of Crimea or the infiltration of the Donbas which preceded many of the horrors that are now known. Their actions and their president history lessons are examples of the imperialism you blame the US for. As someone that seems to have a problem with imperialism, you should be criticising them, but are not... why is that?
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1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union%E2%80%93Ukraine...
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Customs_Union_of_the_Eurasian_...
You say that you hate Russian imperialism, but then start making excuses for their actions and deflecting blame on to others. If you really had an issue with imperialism, you'd be attacking Russia at least as hard as you attack the US.
I don't think you have a problem with imperialism, just with imperialism done by a side you hate. Russia can do whatever they want, even invade another country, and for you that is acceptable or not as bad. Everyone has their bias, but you're too far gone... It's a bit sad to be honest.
Ps: I recommend checking where Syria, Mali, Niger, etc, are on the map. Hint: Not near the Russian border.
And no I do not support Russian imperialism, but nor do I support any government that does someone elses bidding, esspecially when they force their own people to go to war for someone elses interests. Ukraine really is a NATO proxy, and that is what Russia invaded. And do not pretend that Ukraine is united against Russia. The very simple fact is that a significant portion of Ukranians supported and supports Russia.
It is good you mentioned Syria. Russia intervened to save Syria against from same fate that happened to Libya - ie US financed overthrow by Islamic terrorist groups and criminal elements. Both Syria and Libya were at that time strategic Russian allies. I think it is very likely that the US was so pissed off that Russia dared to get in its way in Syria that they intervened in Ukraine.
Ah yes, Ukraine, a NATO proxy that has been trying to join NATO since the early 00's, always being considered (open doors policy, unchanged since NATO was created), but never accepted. Are you telling me that in 2014, when the bloated and corrupt Ukraine military couldn't even stop Russia in Crimea or Donbas, when they didn't even had a working government to give orders, Ukraine was going to join or get some protection from NATO? Ha!
But notice how you are again trying to justify Russia's actions, as if they had no other choice or as if it absolved them of their crimes. It's the "she made me do it", but applied to international relations. Imagine if I did the same to justify the US' invasion of Iraq... what would you say? And since when does a country has the right to invade another country if many of their citizens live there?
I don't understand your point about many Ukrainians not wanting war with Russia. Usually, no one wants war, even in Russia many don't want war, yet Russia invaded. Ukraine had two options, either bend over and accept it or fight. So far the majority in Ukraine is fighting... and you, smart as you are, don't understand why they don't just submit to Russia, why they don't all love this country that invaded them and sends dozens of drones every day to attack them. Clearly you don't understand how most humans work.
I told you (not Russia) to look at a map because you said their imperialism was "confined to areas of their own borders". Not sure if you are misinformed or trying to misinform, but - again - Syria and Africa is not near Russia. I also don't understand why being present in a country or helping allies is imperialism when the US does it, but it's something else when Russia does it. I hope it's just that bias you've mentioned, because the alternatives are not nice.
I'm not going to continue this discussion... You will, again, blame everyone but Russia for the war Russia started and to be honest I have no patience for that shit.
Let's be honest, it was a good play from Putin. No one did anything, there was no real punishment. He thought that the same thing would happen in 2022, but it turns out things are a bit harder now.
You just can't understand why would any Ukrainian resist an invasion force, that's why for you they're just fighting for US interests. If you had read any history, you'd know that many people have the same reaction, as weird that might sound to you.
I have friends in Ukraine. The week after the 2022 invasion started, one of them shared with the last voice note of a friend that had died in northern Kyiv... I didn't understand anything, but you could hear the sadness in his voice. I never saw this guy speaking of Russia or of politics, but that was the changing point. Having to go to shelters every night due to missile strikes from this "friendly country" didn't help.
Another one, from Kharkiv (or Kharkov as he calls it, since he speaks Russian), ended up separated from his family when they fled west after something hit the apartment block some of their family lived in. They're back in Ukraine, but do you think he loves Russia now? You'll blame the US for this "hate"... but the people there know who's attacking Ukraine... it's Russia.
You'll never understand their point of view because you don't want to understand it. You'll keep blaming the US and praising Russia...
I don't know why it's so hard for you to accept that some people might want to fight for their country. Those who are forced - something that every country does - often accept it, not because they love it, but because like their grandfathers, it's their turn to defend their land. I can see a few reasons for someone from Ukraine to fight, a Russian on the other hand... maybe for the money? What else?
Only in your head is that everyone fighting are only doing so for Zelenskyy or NATO... do you think the average person gives a shit about Zelenskyy or NATO? But the fight came to them, so it was either resistance or acceptance of a new master. You think they should bend over... but this is like a robbery... some people just hand their wallet, some try to fight the thieve. It's a mistake to ignore human nature. Not everyone is like you.
Revolutions are not made by moderated people as those are at home watching TV... so yeah, not very nice people were involved. Find me a revolution where this hasn't happened...
I'll make 5 points:
- The "Azov battalion" was only created in February of 2014, after the invasion of Crimea in January and after the Ukrainian army shat its pants (yes, that's the army that was going to join NATO).
- In the 2019 elections when Zelenskyy - a jew - was elected, the far-right party (Svoboda) only received 2.16% of the votes and only had one seat in the parliament. So much for a country full of nazis.
- It's not smart to take some nazis and make them national heroes like Russia did with Azov after their last stand at Mariupol. It only makes the problem worse... another genius move from Russia.
- When there's a war that it's seen as for national defence, it's the ultra nationalists that stand up. The average person doesn't want to fight. It's not a coincidence that you'll find far right people in both Ukraine's and Russia's armies.
- Russia started the fight and can stop at any time. Why only ask Ukraine to stop, but not Russia?
Haha nice to see you come out of the closet. Anti fascist guerillas of WW2 would beg to differ. I my self think it cowardly to hate the other guy on the opposing side just because he was thrown in to fight. Being forced to die for someone elses interests and pocket is a terrible fate, and this applies to Russians and Ukranians alike.
> It's not smart to take some nazis and make them national heroes like Russia did with Azov after their last stand at Mariupol. It only makes the problem worse... another genius move from Russia
For some reason none of those Azov fighters that rubbed bacon on their bullets because the Chechens were coming are so brave and loud now. I wonder what happened
The list is obviously longer than just ultra nationalists, but the anti fascist weren't exactly fighting for some international community (eg: partisans in Italy). They would fight the fascists and if invaded by others, they would fight them too. They were fighting for themselves and to liberate their country.
The point, which maybe wasn't clear, is that it's those with more "extreme" views that stand up, not the average person that wants to run away. The early groups in Ukraine after Russia invaded were not just neo nazis. They even had groups of anarchists fighting in the east.
> For some reason none of those Azov fighters that rubbed bacon on their bullets because the Chechens were coming are so brave and loud now. I wonder what happened
Mostly dead, I assume. For all I care, they can all disappear. Them and the "ruscists".
But you missed the point here too... How many units were named after Azov before and after the siege? Do you think it's a good idea to create conditions for them to be "glorified" since they were sacrificing themselves (whether you agree or not is besides the point) if the intention is to denazify a country?
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hundreds-of-ukrainian-national...
This is the country waging a prolonged all out unprovoked war with their neighbor right?
I don't know man. What's to the east that makes these countries beg to join? Is it a peaceful country? Or one that sees "russians" in need of protection everywhere, one where the president goes on TV and gives history lessons that reduces these countries russian land, one that makes regular threats about invasion or nuking their cities, etc?
The US has a lot of influence, but that has limits. The good thing for them is that with Russia behaving like this, they don't need to move a finger to have eastern Europe on their side.
I'll ask again: why did the countries in the east tried to join NATO? Why join if there's no threat?
It's not Estonia or Lithuania making regular threats about nuking a Russian city or taking the Russia in 2 or 3 days. They may hate Russia (why did you left the part where they were invaded and their language and culture was repressed for years?), but they're not going to start a war against a huge nuclear country. They will, for obvious reasons, try to have the means to make any invasion very costly though.
You can play dumb all you want, but it doesn't take a genius to understand that Russia's behaviour and their lack of respect for other countries' borders drives those countries towards NATO. NATO was losing its purpose until Putin decided to start invading countries... but of course you can't see this as Russia can't do anything bad and it's all the US fault.
Have you heard the saying, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"? Try to understand it, maybe then you also understand why countries that were attacked then sided with Nazis and anything that opposed the country that invaded them.
Russians living in eastern Europe is a well known thing, something that the Soviet Union did many times in different places, so it's not "unspoken" at all. In any case, this is not rocket science: Mexico doesn't get to invade the US because there are many mexicans there. The US doesn't get to invade Berlin because there are many americans there. Ang guess what... Russia doesn't have any right to anything outside their borders. Why is it so hard for you and Russians to understand something so simple?
There's only one country in Europe talking of changing their borders and waging war. It's Russia. No "buts" or "ifs". Russia started a war, full stop. The fanboys just need to grow a pair and stop making up excuses for them.
The US did not attempt to annex Kosovo and admit it as a 51st state. I'm also not aware of any pronouncements from an American presidents in regard to "the historical unity of American and Kosovan peoples".
No analogy here.
You're in explicit violation of site guidelines. Recommend you stop:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine
In late 2021, Russia massed troops near Ukraine's borders and issued demands including a ban on Ukraine ever joining the NATO military alliance. After repeatedly denying having plans to invade or attack Ukraine, on 24 February 2022, Russian president Vladimir Putin announced a "special military operation",
Why did russia lie about what they were going to do?
Putin espoused irredentist views challenging Ukraine's legitimacy as a state, falsely claimed that Ukraine was governed by neo-Nazis
If they were "provoked" why did they lie?
Just like you're statement that russia was "provoked", stating that ukraine is not a country is wishful hallucination.
This isn't how reality works. You wishing something was true and saying it is true doesn't make it true.
Even Ukraine supporters admit that Ukraine has a problem with neo Nazis. Like waaay bigger than it should be. Just google it. Its a pretty out in the open fact
Putin doesn't have a say in other countries. Where are you getting these ideas? Why do you think this a justification? Link me some sites that you get your information from.
The things you are saying here are straight up russian propaganda. Sovereign countries don't operate on putin's terms. Ukraine can join NATO if they choose to.
Is there anything you don't like about Putin? Say something negative about him, anything at all.
If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.
Im pretty sure all imperialists have a say what happens in other countries. US does it kn a regular basisneven to allies. It is kind of in the definition of the term. This is not about morality of it. I am saying it was down right stupid not to have expected Russia to attack while the country was taking serious steps toward inviting NATO in its borders. Anyone with a brain could have predicted how Russia was going to react toward this. The US tried to pull a bluf but honnestly they couldnt care less since they are on another continent
> Ukraine can join NATO if they choose to.
I mean, that is obviously false as things stand right now
Where did you get any of this nonsense? Say one thing negative about putin.
Even though you have a long history of badly violating HN's rules, I'm not going to ban you right now because it doesn't feel fair to single out one account. But if you keep this up, we're going to have to. It's not ok.
If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.
However the world let the annexation of Crimea slide in 2014 and that emboldened Russia. Let them chop off a piece of Ukraine now and that will embolden them even more. After all Finland was a province of the Russian Empire before the revolution of 1917 and parts of Poland were under Soviet's control prior to 1941. And that's without going back into middle ages. Lots of places to take back.
In fact, it won't even really be the voting citizens of the USA who make any decisions, because when red/blue splits 50/50 it isn't "tyranny of the majority" anymore, it's tyranny of luck.
Re: your taxes - it'd be prudent to look beyond short-term effects and consider what different scenarios would lead to in the long-term. The EU had no choice but to help Ukraine to resist. Consider where things would've been now if they didn't.
If Germany had any strategic autonomy left (which they don’t, they’re just a US vassal through and through) they would do a second Rapallo, maybe this time also involving China, at that point they’d still have a chance to put their economy back on track.
The EU can't let Russia "win" as it would set a precedent. If the US withdraws their support, the EU will have no choice but to ramp up theirs, meaning funneling money to the military complex. Double or triple that if Trump goes through with his NATO defunding/withdrawl threats. This could easily destabilize the EU economy, cause internal friction, provide fertile ground for nationalism and, ultimately, lead to the fracture of the EU. Now recall Trump's cordial alignment with Putin, which will undoubtedly encourage this sort of development, and it all starts to look outright scary.