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Re:How China Is Like the 19th Century U.S. by yazzku on Friday November 01, 2024 @03:24PM (#42020599)
Why is it unsettling?
Re:How China Is Like the 19th Century U.S. by burnished on Friday November 01, 2024 @03:30PM (#42020645)
A common refrain in american homes and schools is about american superiority over all other countries, especially their rivals like china.
Re:How China Is Like the 19th Century U.S. by rootusrootus on Friday November 01, 2024 @03:35PM (#42020685)
Is that perception why everyone online constantly shits on America and proclaims that every other country is superior? For as much as people like to accuse Americans of being "'Merica, fuck yeah!" the truth sure looks like it is mostly other countries with the arrogant attitude.
Re:How China Is Like the 19th Century U.S. by JumpCrisscross on Friday November 01, 2024 @03:52PM (#42020856)
Capacity for self criticism is part of what lets America reïnvent itself.
Re:How China Is Like the 19th Century U.S. by dingnuts on Friday November 01, 2024 @05:19PM (#42021655)
yes and it's deeply ironic that you just quoted an American film which was satirizing that attitude twenty years ago!

if anything I feel like Americans have become extremely self loathing in the passing generation since the release of Team America: World Police

Re:How China Is Like the 19th Century U.S. by r14c on Friday November 01, 2024 @05:31PM (#42021758)
Americans may feel that way, but "Team America: World Police" still applies to US foreign policy in 2024.
Re:How China Is Like the 19th Century U.S. by Nasrudith on Friday November 01, 2024 @05:36PM (#42021790)
Interesting that the self-loathing seems to be associated with waging unpopular and losing wars. I didn't live through it but the Vietnam War seemed to have some similar impact that persists to this day with the utter loathing of conscription. It seems to be the same underlying cause: that bad leadership essentially permanently burned credibility for their country for no gain for their country.
Re:How China Is Like the 19th Century U.S. by soperj on Friday November 01, 2024 @05:49PM (#42021898)
Lots of gain for those in charge, and their cronies.
Re:How China Is Like the 19th Century U.S. by dyauspitr on Friday November 01, 2024 @04:55PM (#42021472)
Stop playing dumb, superiority is everything.
Re:How China Is Like the 19th Century U.S. by typon on Friday November 01, 2024 @04:57PM (#42021485)
Xenophobia
Re:How China Is Like the 19th Century U.S. by uses on Friday November 01, 2024 @05:26PM (#42021718)
China - under Xi specifically - doesn't have rule of law, acts as an agent of chaos on the world stage, doesn't care about international order, bullies its neighbors, and critically, has become a 1-man dictatorship in the past ~10 years. Under Xi, it's an aspiring evil empire that considers all humans of Han ancestry to belong to it, and genuinely doesn't care about the rest. Pre-Xi, China was on a positive trajectory. Post-Xi, hopefully that'll return.
Re:How China Is Like the 19th Century U.S. by juunpp on Friday November 01, 2024 @06:17PM (#42022115)
Your first sentence is exactly what the US has done since the Cold War through recent history. Why is it different when China does it, which it also hasn't to the scale that the US has?
Re:How China Is Like the 19th Century U.S. by rustcleaner on Friday November 01, 2024 @08:14PM (#42022923)
It's not different. Peace is always a temporary illusion, a cloaking of the war, and one shouldn't expect any consistency in these cases (akin to the peacock's tail-feathers, too much consistency costs).
Re:How China Is Like the 19th Century U.S. by fyrn_ on Saturday November 02, 2024 @02:58AM (#42024552)
The US navy patrolling the world's oceans since world war two has had a huge positive stabalizing effect on world trade. Yes it is in the US interest, but the claim that the US ignore international law or induces chaos is wrong
Re:How China Is Like the 19th Century U.S. by lmz on Saturday November 02, 2024 @05:26AM (#42025130)
You could say something similar about the Mongols (Pax Mongolica). Of course, they weren't very nice to other states when establishing that order...
Re:How China Is Like the 19th Century U.S. by ridiculous_leke on Friday November 01, 2024 @05:53PM (#42021919)
Unlike several other authoritarian regimes, this is very much constitutional in China. Every institution pretty much reports to the CCP.
Re:How China Is Like the 19th Century U.S. by yazzku on Friday November 01, 2024 @09:02PM (#42023180)
Really? That's fantastic. In the US, three-letter government agencies work outside the scrutiny of the law.
Re:How China Is Like the 19th Century U.S. by fakedang on Sunday November 03, 2024 @07:00AM (#42032564)
In China, "there are no three-letter government agencies".
Re:How China Is Like the 19th Century U.S. by surfpel on Friday November 01, 2024 @07:01PM (#42022390)
Yikes. Propaganda runs DEEP in the west.

Everything you said describes the US and other western nations better than any other civilization in history. The US backs genocide after genocide, consistently breaks the international “laws” it pushed for. From the start of the empire, that’s been the explicit policy of the American empire. Trail of tears anyone? Hiroshima? Agent Orange? East Timor? The banana republics? It’s a really long list…

Students really need to be taught their actual history. It’s really quite horrific.

This comment displays not even a shred of understanding regarding China or it’s history.

How dare China have territorial sovereignty. How dare they have security in their own region. How dare they build infrastructure in the global south, when everyone knows they should be pillaging those regions instead! Unthinkable! That all belongs to the west!

That comment represents an insanity in the west that may just be the downfall of organized human life.

Re:How China Is Like the 19th Century U.S. by wumeow on Friday November 01, 2024 @08:12PM (#42022911)
Re:How China Is Like the 19th Century U.S. by surfpel on Friday November 01, 2024 @10:00PM (#42023497)
Lol yes exactly like this. Tides have turned eh? The American elite are doing a very good job of distracting the public from problems at home.

They get people riled up about Taiwan or Ukraine, meanwhile the education system, the housing supply, job market, healthcare system, etc... are all in shambles.

Americans don't even question it anymore! It's now fair that housing should be >=40% of your wage. It's fair that companies that are propped up by the American people can screw over those same people.

But when you see how modern and lively China is and how they live, compared to the crumbling, old United States... oh boy. Strange how they can afford it but we, the supposed 'richest country in the world', can't.

Re:How China Is Like the 19th Century U.S. by csomar on Friday November 01, 2024 @10:33PM (#42023638)
Dude you need to chill. Xi is just a man in China. You need to take a trip there to get a different perspective and make sure to talk/interact with the local people.
Re:How China Is Like the 19th Century U.S. by DiogenesKynikos on Saturday November 02, 2024 @01:00AM (#42024167)
China doesn't really have stable rule of law, but "agent of chaos on the world stage"? It's the most stable and predictable major power, by far.

China hasn't fought a war in 40 years. It's been too busy focusing on its own internal economic development. In terms of the international order, China is much more committed to institutions like the UN and WTO than the US is, because China wants a stable international framework in which to continue its own internal development.

Re:How China Is Like the 19th Century U.S. by FirmwareBurner on Saturday November 02, 2024 @09:52AM (#42026392)
>doesn't have rule of law, acts as an agent of chaos on the world stage, doesn't care about international order, bullies its neighbors

This also describes the actions of the US in many circumstances in its history.

Re:How China Is Like the 19th Century U.S. by heroprotagonist on Friday November 01, 2024 @05:27PM (#42021725)
Because of how they treated Hong Kong.

The way they curb free speech, even projecting that internationally.

Their announced intention to become the world's superpower and displace the US militarily, technologically, and economically, and the risks to US interest which tie to that.

Their active pursuit to enact that claim, specifically with rapid military technology development, and international organization of BRICS.

Their aggressive tendencies towards US allies.

Their aggressive spying on US military and industrial facilities.

Re:How China Is Like the 19th Century U.S. by throwaway14356 on Friday November 01, 2024 @08:13PM (#42022918)
We deserve this treatment. Their entire personality on the international stage was created by the west.

It could of course be that they would be much worse without us but that didn't happen.

Re:How China Is Like the 19th Century U.S. by SJC_Hacker on Saturday November 02, 2024 @01:43PM (#42027871)
It depends on how long you're willing to roll back US interventionism. If you're talking about pre-WW1, maybe. But even by the mid-late 19th century the US started sticking its nose in the Pacific (which alarmed Japan, which contributed to that countries subsequent militarism). So I'd say you'd have to go back even further.

If not the US, it would probably be Europe and/or the Soviet Union. China and the Soviet Union nearly came to blows in the 60s.

Europe decolonized largely because Hitler wrecked major continental colonial powers France and the Netherlands) and put Britain with their backs against the wall such that it had to partially abandon its empire in order to defend itself and avoid a complete disaster. So they let India go, but tried to hold on elsewhere. This worked to some extent, but not in others. What remained tried to morph into the Commonwealth, this was only partially successful.

The US assumed the crown, this time with a different model, hegemony vs. colonialism. They had a rival in the Soviet Union, which funded Communist revolutions in many parts of the developing world. With the exception of Vietnam, something the Chinese did not do. They valued North Vietnam as a buffer against Wester imposition, but were not too keen on a reunified Vietnam, indeed they invaded a few years after South Vietnam collapsed.

Re:How China Is Like the 19th Century U.S. by Prbeek on Saturday November 02, 2024 @02:31AM (#42024447)
To a non westerner, this doesn't seem like a bad thing. A world where US sanctions are useless is a good world
Re:How China Is Like the 19th Century U.S. by throwaway2037 on Saturday November 02, 2024 @03:30AM (#42024656)

    > Because of how they treated Hong Kong.
Taiwan, too.
Re:How China Is Like the 19th Century U.S. by heroprotagonist on Saturday November 02, 2024 @11:09AM (#42026824)
China has barely started with Taiwan. There are projections of China moving to forcibly take Taiwan within the next two years. It may be a bit later than that.

If the US doesn't take a strong stance in support of its ally in Taiwan, China will only take it sooner. Once China invades, that begins the massive expansion to WWIII that JP Morgan CEO claims has already begun with Ukraine.

The US can't lose Taiwan as an ally, strategically or economically. If we give up our support of Taiwan we've as good as handed over hegemony to China. And we'll have lost the AGI race in its infancy.

Re:How China Is Like the 19th Century U.S. by missinglugnut on Friday November 01, 2024 @05:32PM (#42021762)
Well for starters, Xi Jinping being the most powerful person on Earth is probably a bad sign for democracy.

In their time as the dominant world power, the US hasn't always used their influence for good, but at least its a democracy with some form of constitutionally protected human rights in charge. I much prefer that to having a country with a permanent ruling party where critics go missing being the dominant force in world affairs.

Re:How China Is Like the 19th Century U.S. by 0x457 on Friday November 01, 2024 @06:57PM (#42022366)
America only cares about spreading democracy if some country they have beef with isn't democratic. America had no issue replacing democratic (and sometimes secular) goverments with dictatorships if dictatorship was more friendly to the US.
Re:How China Is Like the 19th Century U.S. by juunpp on Friday November 01, 2024 @06:15PM (#42022097)
If you want to see how much the US cares about democracy, read Noam Chomsky's How The World Works. Or just look down south to Latin America.
Re:How China Is Like the 19th Century U.S. by soperj on Friday November 01, 2024 @05:47PM (#42021888)
> the US hasn't always used their influence for good

This is a bit of an understatement for anyone in latin america.

> but at least its a democracy with some form of constitutionally protected human rights in charge

as far as i can tell, those only apply to US citizens, not humans in general.

Re:How China Is Like the 19th Century U.S. by pessimizer on Friday November 01, 2024 @06:32PM (#42022208)
The US thinks of Chinese prosperity as a threat in and of itself. The US wants to call the shots, and the reason it has been able to since WWII is because it is wealthy (due to its innovation of not being a country in Europe during WWII.) It's not simply racism, though. The US also thinks of European prosperity as a threat.

These sentiments are not hidden. They are openly spoken during policy discussions and in policy papers. Fake concerns about the nature of Chinese governance have nothing to do with it - the problem the US has with Chinese governance is that China is not governed by the US. The US is jealous of China's tools for censorship and the tight top down political control.

edit: the US government is not at all concerned about the citizens of China. It also did not invade Afghanistan for women's rights, and it is not helping Israel to preserve gay rights. These are barely even serious pretenses. It is not in Ukraine because it cares about the freedom of 2/3rds of the population to suppress the other third. These are stories for children.

Re:How China Is Like the 19th Century U.S. by FirmwareBurner on Saturday November 02, 2024 @09:55AM (#42026411)
This right here.