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Re:Xkcd 1425 (Tasks) turns ten years old today by dumbfounder on Thursday September 26, 2024 @10:27AM (#41658798)
Steve Jobs would just say "figure it out". Way less condescending because he isn't trying to offer a solution to something that is your domain of expertise, but it also says he doesn't care if you think it's not feasible right now. Think hard and find a creative way to make it feasible. This often needs to be said because people tend to jump to the conclusion that it is too hard before they take time to think about possible solutions.
Re:Xkcd 1425 (Tasks) turns ten years old today by dotancohen on Thursday September 26, 2024 @11:45AM (#41659755)

  > Steve Jobs would just say "figure it out".
Give me the budget that Steve Jobs gave to his engineers, and I'll figure it out too.

The difficulty in what my clients are asking for is often not the feasibility but rather the time, monetary, and opportunity cost for ignoring other features.

Re:Xkcd 1425 (Tasks) turns ten years old today by chubot on Thursday September 26, 2024 @12:04PM (#41660053)
I"m not sure what "budget" you're referring to

Apple didn't pay well for most of its life, until well after iPhone/iPad success

It was not like "FAANG salaries", which started around 2011, by my reckoning because Facebook didn't agree to the "Steve Jobs collusion" with Google/Intel/Pixar (ironically!)

This is very well documented

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L...

Steve Jobs e-mails Eric Schmidt (2007) -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28699873

Steve mostly realized the good engineers want to work with other good engineers, no matter what they are paid

He didn't actually give people "budget"

Re:Xkcd 1425 (Tasks) turns ten years old today by salamanderman on Thursday September 26, 2024 @12:18PM (#41660219)
I can't tell for sure if the "ironically" refers to it feeling ironic that Facebook didn't collude, or that Pixar did collude. If it's the latter, it's because Jobs was CEO and primary shareholder of Pixar and orchestrated it's purchase by Disney to get himself a seat on the Disney board. Ironically, if I'm recalling the biography correctly, Jobs made significantly more money from Pixar than he did from his first phase at Apple.
Re:Xkcd 1425 (Tasks) turns ten years old today by roughly on Thursday September 26, 2024 @12:23PM (#41660267)
A budget is also time, resources, and latitude. Steve Jobs’ “Figure it out” was “I’ve given you a task, now go do what’s necessary to get it done”. This is what the post you’re responding to is referencing: the client is asking for something to get done but is not providing the resources required.

As a side note, engineers tend to be bad at couching conversations in these terms - nothing is impossible*, things just cost more or less, and that’s a decision for the money people to make.

* yes yes caveat caveat

Re:Xkcd 1425 (Tasks) turns ten years old today by al_borland on Thursday September 26, 2024 @12:44PM (#41660548)
When I think of “budget” in this context, I’m thinking about what is available to the engineers in terms of tools, resources, and time.

Where I work, it doesn’t really matter what I’m paid, we don’t have a budget to go get what we need. If I think a certain tool would help get a job done faster, too bad, I have to cobble together what I can with the tools I’ve been provided. If I think something will take a year, too bad, it’s due in a month and we’ll have an hour long meeting every day to ask why it isn’t done yet.

In this context, employee pay is largely irrelevant.

Re:Xkcd 1425 (Tasks) turns ten years old today by saghm on Thursday September 26, 2024 @12:47PM (#41660582)
I'm not sure this makes the idea of him saying "just figure it out" any more applicable to the rest of us (which is what the parent comment was responding to). You've pointed out that he was _unsuccessful_ for a number of decades before hitting the jackpot, and I'm dubious that the only reason he was more successful than everyone else in the long run was due to the rest of the industry just not trying hard enough. That means it was some combination of his specific skills or circumstances beyond his control, and either way, it's not really super actionable advice to "just figure it out (and either be uniquely talented or extremely lucky)".
Re:Xkcd 1425 (Tasks) turns ten years old today by dotancohen on Thursday September 26, 2024 @03:05PM (#41661978)
I was referring to project budget, not pay.
Re:Xkcd 1425 (Tasks) turns ten years old today by hinkley on Thursday September 26, 2024 @12:37PM (#41660474)
I had a coworker who wanted a BMW more than anything. Typical young Indian male aspiration of that era (everyone had a BMW as their wallpaper).

He got the money together to buy one. Or thought he did. Forgot about insurance, being a young male and little driving history. Doubled his payments.

Also he was a terrible driver. The expensive thing about BMWs is not the car it’s repairs. Which is also why the insurance is so high. He wrecked that thing three times. He probably could have gotten his family into a better house for the amount of money he burned on that car. So foolish.

Customers live out this sort of drama all the time. They need a good used car but they want something that’ll bankrupt them because they have an image in their head. Either a dream or a status symbol.

Gordon Ramsay did a whole TV series about restaurateurs with the same mental block. They want to be successful but they don’t want to pay their dues and pretend instead.

Re:Xkcd 1425 (Tasks) turns ten years old today by GolfPopper on Thursday September 26, 2024 @11:00AM (#41659180)
"Get a spaceship to Alpha Centauri next year. Oh, and it has to have a crew of at least 20 people, who all return safely to Earth by the end of the decade." I'll leave you to think hard and find a creative way to make it feasible.

Sure, sometimes you can re-define the goal. ("We need to know more about what's in the Alpha Centauri system.") But sometimes domain expertise means telling non-experts about reality. (Pi is not 3, no matter how much someone thinks it should be.)

Re:Xkcd 1425 (Tasks) turns ten years old today by jareklupinski on Thursday September 26, 2024 @10:43AM (#41658982)
> "you asked me to move a dining room chair into the living room. Then you asked me to do the same with the toilet."

> "figure it out"

that's the kind of motivation that leads to someone making Armchair Toilet

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ce/11/34/ce1134ca396e43f55c84...

Re:Xkcd 1425 (Tasks) turns ten years old today by mey on Thursday September 26, 2024 @11:55AM (#41659918)
Or a portable chemical toilet which is not uncommon in campers.
Re:Xkcd 1425 (Tasks) turns ten years old today by ska on Thursday September 26, 2024 @10:39AM (#41658924)
“Figure it out” can work well, but only if it is predated by “what resources do you need” and a reasonable solution about that.

If the “why can’t we do X” is “because we’re a team of 4 and already overburdened” there may not be any practical solutions.

Re:Xkcd 1425 (Tasks) turns ten years old today by CSMastermind on Thursday September 26, 2024 @10:45AM (#41659007)
I generally find that more resources are often the easiest thing to get and rarely helpful.

Most of the time the issue is the "9 women can't have a baby in a month" problem where adding more resources is not going to make things happen faster - in fact it may slow things down.

But the business doesn't understand that software is not like construction where adding more people really will get that ditch dug faster.

At its core software is not making a thing - it's inventing a machine that makes the thing.

If you're Little Debbie and you have a machine that makes cupcakes it's hard when the business comes in and says, "now it needs to make fudge rounds." And no amount of extra people working on the problem will get that machine retooled any faster.

Re:Xkcd 1425 (Tasks) turns ten years old today by bluefirebrand on Thursday September 26, 2024 @12:05PM (#41660064)
> But the business doesn't understand that software is not like construction where adding more people really will get that ditch dug faster.

People tend to understand that there's an upper limit to the amount of people that can be deployed to dig a ditch any faster too

They just refuse to believe that with software, sometimes that number is smaller than they think it should be simply because people aren't physically getting in each others way

Re:Xkcd 1425 (Tasks) turns ten years old today by ska on Thursday September 26, 2024 @03:41PM (#41662376)
Oh, I wasn't meaning to suggest that all problems are solvable by throwing more resources at it, that clearly isn't the case.

But it's super common for a team to be asked to do something fundamentally outside their scope, and the asking client/boss not realizing that they are doin g it.

"Figure it out" as a useful strategy sort of assumes that both sides of the equation are clued in about this and roughly on the same page.

"I underwrote a great team, you should be able to figure this out (stop whining about it being hard)" is a fundamentally different statement than "Why can't you just do X, how hard can it be?"

It's also worth remembering that the plural of "resource" is not "team".

Re:Xkcd 1425 (Tasks) turns ten years old today by rolisz on Thursday September 26, 2024 @10:51AM (#41659070)
The problem is not the figuring out. The problem is the client paying for the solution.
Re:Xkcd 1425 (Tasks) turns ten years old today by Clamchop on Thursday September 26, 2024 @11:07AM (#41659258)
I've built you a toilet with a collection bucket that smells, needs regularly scheduled emptying into the other toilet, and it overflows anyway when you throw parties.
Re:Xkcd 1425 (Tasks) turns ten years old today by dotancohen on Thursday September 26, 2024 @11:47AM (#41659795)
Sounds like a good fit for a Crohn's job.
Re:Xkcd 1425 (Tasks) turns ten years old today by yed on Thursday September 26, 2024 @10:45AM (#41659006)
Since they referred to talking to “clients”, I’m guessing the problem wasn’t that the task couldn’t be done but that the client didn’t want to pay more for the additional work.
Re:Xkcd 1425 (Tasks) turns ten years old today by salawat on Thursday September 26, 2024 @11:34AM (#41659604)
Reply: what's my resource budget? Not figuring out something utterly pointless because you won't want to spend the resources to make it happen.

See: the full rewrite/retool

Re:Xkcd 1425 (Tasks) turns ten years old today by reaperducer on Thursday September 26, 2024 @12:25PM (#41660297)
Reply: what's my resource budget?

This resonates with me. I get a lot of "But Microsoft Office 365 Cloud does…"

I tell them that Microsoft spent a quarter of a billion dollars on that item last year, and I'm perfectly happy to re-create it if they give me a quarter of a billion dollars, too.

Re:Xkcd 1425 (Tasks) turns ten years old today by klabb3 on Thursday September 26, 2024 @10:39AM (#41658922)
While I agree this is an improvement, and that it respects the agency of the worker, it’s not enough. Pushing true boundaries may in rare cases be catalyzed by an inspirational leader, but that’s exceedingly rare even if survivorship bias makes us think different. On the contrary, our tech graveyards are littered with bold bets that failed because leaders deluded themselves with yes-men.
Re:Xkcd 1425 (Tasks) turns ten years old today by hinkley on Thursday September 26, 2024 @12:30PM (#41660381)
Not everyone should try to be Steve Jobs.

I had a boss who I’m now sure had aphantasia and his two best UI people would tell him something wouldn’t fit in backlog grooming, then we’d get to spend a week showing him all the different ways it doesn’t fit before he would shut the fuck up about it.

We already “figured it out” in our heads because we are equipped to do the job. We were already doing some pretty sophisticated typesetting to make more things fit on the screen than really did.

He was sure he knew where the problems were in the org and that they weren’t him.