News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by qingcharles on Friday September 13, 2024 @11:21AM (#41532056)
This view isn't matched by the stats. I have a friend who is a successful OF model and only a fraction of one percent of her subscribers ever DM her. A lot of them subscribe, see what they want and then immediately delete their accounts. There's no apparent relationship between her fans and her, for the most part.
Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by ehnto on Friday September 13, 2024 @11:35AM (#41532182)
Parasocial relationships don't require interaction, you could just watch a twitch streamer a lot. I think if we defined it by requiring interaction we would underestimate the percieved impact of these social phenomenon.
Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by mudita on Friday September 13, 2024 @11:43AM (#41532263)
It not only doesn’t require interaction, the lack of interaction is what makes is parasocial.
Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by jayd16 on Friday September 13, 2024 @12:02PM (#41532463)
So like, movies are more para social because they have less interaction?
Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by NeuroCoder on Friday September 13, 2024 @12:14PM (#41532580)
I've never subscribed to any only fans so my only exposure is checking out twitch. I assume there's a difference in that movies don't act like they're talking to you as an individual person. Also, parasocial is a fairly newly emerging term and I don't think we can clearly define everything that facilitates it, but we can easily identify some of the outcomes
Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by IncreasePosts on Friday September 13, 2024 @12:37PM (#41532812)
No, because people don't usually form an opinion that the movie cares about them.
Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by mudita on Friday September 13, 2024 @12:37PM (#41532814)
I wouldn’t say that movies per se are parasocial, but if you behave and feel like you have a relationship with somebody in a movie, then it’s probably parasocial.

To a degree it’s also quite normal to have parasocial reactions to personaes from media, it only becomes problematic once people substitute actual social relationships with extreme parasocial relationships.

Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by nobody9999 on Friday September 13, 2024 @12:55PM (#41532986)
>So like, movies are more para social because they have less interaction?

More live TV/streaming series than movies, IMHO.

How many times have you heard someone say they just finished watching $SERIES and will miss their TV friends?

And with OnlyFans (I'm guessing here, as I don't use the platform), at least the sexual stuff there (is there other stuff?) it's like going to a strip club, except it's all recorded (and sometimes? mostly? more explicit) and instead of dollar bills in the garters, it's tips/subscriptions.

Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by Groxx on Friday September 13, 2024 @01:00PM (#41533020)
On the assumption that there is a relationship (believed to be) involved: yeah, I would say so. Streamers (often) have a chat, actual interaction is possible in a way movies do not allow.

The closest equivalent you would get with a movie is to send fan-mail and get a response. Which people do, but I think it's safe to claim the frequency is much lower.

Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by jandrese on Friday September 13, 2024 @01:03PM (#41533043)
I think the size of the crowd matters here. Streaming feels more personal because you are doing it by yourself and the total number of people watching the same stream is probably quite small. You could even message them and they might respond. It's more personal than watching a movie or TV show. On a slightly grosser level you know deep down that there is zero chance of ever hooking up with Megan Fox, but with a random OF model that feels like it might be possible. Even if it really isn't.

An interesting comparison is K-Pop singers who are at the same time megastars with millions of devoted followers, but also carefully managed to always seem available for a relationship. A truly difficult bridge to cross, but they somehow do it and make bank.

Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by squeaky-clean on Friday September 13, 2024 @02:12PM (#41533649)
You can like Ryan Gosling and catch every movie he's in. But if you're buying a tabloid so you can see photos of him getting coffee at Starbucks, that's parasocial.
Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by GuB-42 on Friday September 13, 2024 @03:22PM (#41534280)
It is also parasocial if you just like Ryan Gosling and watch all his movies. You still have one-way feelings for a personality. It is just that it is not pathological.

Parasocial relationships are not bad per se. Let's say you are thinking about Donald Knuth when working on a computer science problem, nothing bad here, taking inspiration from the leaders in the field. But it is also a parasocial relationship, it is like imagining Don Knuth next to you, helping you solve your problem, even though he has absolutely no idea about who you are. It is a one way connection, but here, it is actually productive.

Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by chgs on Saturday September 14, 2024 @08:10AM (#41539298)
There’s no neat boundaries - read a Ryan gosling autobiography. How about an autobiography of Einstein. Or a biography? What about watching a film of a historical figure? Do I have a parasocial relationship with Anne Boleyn because I saw Six?

If you’re ignoring the “believe you have a two way relationship” then everything could be defined as parasocial.

Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by GuB-42 on Saturday September 14, 2024 @12:50PM (#41540968)
Most people who form parasocial relationships don't actually believe it to be two-way.

It feels like it is two-way, in other words, it is an illusion, but just like with optical illusions, you don't have to believe them. For example, mirages may look a lot like water, but people who are familiar with them know it is just a trick of their senses and don't assume there is water there. Same thing for parasocial relationships, even the most intense. Proof is, parasocial relationships with fictional characters is common, and most people who feel a bound with Harry Potter are not crazy enough to believe the feelings are shared, as they are aware that Harry Potter doesn't actually exist.

And yes, I believe that parasocial relationships are extremely common and in most case, positive or at least harmless. I don't believe reading biographies is always parasocial though, it could just be the search for academic knowledge, without any feeling of connection, but done repeatedly, in can become one, which is again, not necessarily a bad thing.

You can absolutely have a parasocial relationship with Anne Boleyn, and I suspect most people who study her in depth do, as picturing oneself with her can help better understand her life and its historical context. It is essentially a mind hack, instead of just using logic, you also use emotions.

Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by Maxatar on Friday September 13, 2024 @03:16PM (#41534219)
Well movies, tabloids and radio/music were the original mediums used to study parasocial relationships in the 50s.

Whether it's more or less parasocial than live streaming has more to do with quantity and access than it does the specific form of media.

Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by acchow on Friday September 13, 2024 @07:18PM (#41536072)
Characters in a movie only last during the viewing. When following a Twitch streamer, you keep following this person or character over many months or years (since many of them are playing character).

If you feel a strong connection to a character and they barely know anything about you (or barely feel anything towards you), that's not truly social.

Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by deepsun on Friday September 13, 2024 @11:56AM (#41532397)
But then what's the difference between live streaming and recordings? There's some magic in live streams -- people prefer to watch boring live streams instead of hand-picked recorded videos of best games/conversations/jokes.
Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by danudey on Friday September 13, 2024 @12:03PM (#41532474)
Is this true, or anecdotal?

Personally, every time I decide "I'm going to check out this streamer's live stream" I always end up joining at some point where they're getting set up, they're taking a break, they're reading chat, they're eating soup... I've never actually tuned into a livestream I'm actually interested in.

Meanwhile, RTGame was one of the first gaming content creators I ever subscribed to, and all of his content is his twitch livestreams edited down to actually interesting clips or sections.

Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by kyle-rb on Friday September 13, 2024 @12:30PM (#41532735)
I think different people prefer different things, and also different creators provide different things.

I enjoy smaller Twitch channels where the chat isn't going 1000mph because you can actually chat with other viewers. There's definitely a parasocial element if the streamer reads your message, but it's more that it's an online community with shared references and in-jokes.

Also the people I follow are mostly part-time streamers doing 3-4 hour streams a few nights per week, so they don't need many breaks like the ones doing all-day streams.

Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by jajko on Friday September 13, 2024 @12:46PM (#41532911)
There is generally a TON of money to be made in live streaming in porn. A friend of mine, way before current gen of social media, bought 2 apartments and a sports car doing exactly that.

I'd say the audience willing to pay extra for that is very limited, especially once you move to lets say a very niche stuff, but oh boy they paid a ton. Live also means 2-way interaction, additional added value (and price).

Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by vasco on Friday September 13, 2024 @12:56PM (#41532994)
Do you believe all livestreaming platforms combined have more views than youtube sans-livestream videos? I highly doubt that.
Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by deepsun on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @12:54AM (#41575939)
Not sure about views, but hours spent might be higher for livestreaming.

Especially I think most people don't know about steaming, never watched a single live streamer, but if we filter them out, then among people who watched a live stream at least once amount of hours spent might be higher.

Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by setgree on Friday September 13, 2024 @01:50PM (#41533468)
Regarding parasocial relationships in general, I like [0]:

> a few exceptional people (many of them imaginary) get far more love than most people need or can enjoy.

> This seems an essential tragedy of the human condition. You might claim that love isn’t a limited resource, that the more people each of us love, the more love we each have to give out. So there is no conflict between loving popular and imaginary people and loving the rest of us. But while this might be true at some low scales of how many people we love, at the actual scales of love this just doesn’t seem right to me. Love instead seems scarce at the margin.

> Please, someone thoughtful and clever, figure out how we might all be much loved.

[0] https://www.overcomingbias.com/p/alas-unequal-lovehtml

Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by whoopdedo on Friday September 13, 2024 @11:26AM (#41532108)
>subscribe ... and then immediately delete their accounts

Sounds like credit card fraud to me. Bots using stolen cards to scrape OF content. Also easily verifies that the number works before attempting a pricier purchase.

Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by alsetmusic on Friday September 13, 2024 @11:53AM (#41532365)
> Sounds like credit card fraud to me. Bots using stolen cards to scrape OF content. Also easily verifies that the number works before attempting a pricier purchase.

I’ve subscribed for one month to two different creators just to check the content. Neither was interesting enough to maintain a subscription. I don’t think the described behavior sounds nefarious.

Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by taikobo on Friday September 13, 2024 @12:06PM (#41532500)
The part that they delete their account immediately afterwards?
Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by paulryanrogers on Friday September 13, 2024 @12:26PM (#41532700)
Perhaps to avoid unintended rebill or make it less likely for a loved one to discover it.
Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by aqme28 on Friday September 13, 2024 @01:09PM (#41533097)
Buyers remorse after purchasing pornography? I don't know why you're surprised.
Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by yamazakiwi on Friday September 13, 2024 @01:56PM (#41533499)
Or regular embarrassment, or I don't want to "get in" to onlyfans, just this one time then I'll delete.
Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by luckylion on Friday September 13, 2024 @02:16PM (#41533686)
I suppose that hinges on what "a lot" means in that comment. If it's "a lot" in absolute values, that's very plausible. If it's "a lot" as a percentage, OnlyFans would have to have a high rate of account closures.
Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by qingcharles on Friday September 13, 2024 @05:33PM (#41535382)
OK, I asked. "A lot" is about 20%.
Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by rockinghigh on Friday September 13, 2024 @01:50PM (#41533462)
Probably a combination of being a subscription model with auto-renewal and people regretting wasting money for this type of content.
Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by knodi123 on Friday September 13, 2024 @11:53AM (#41532372)
Sounds like it, and I'm sure it is sometimes... but it's also legitimate behavior from people struggling with guilt or self-actualization. At least as far as internal fraud detection, a lot of sites like these have had to re-think what kind of behavior is a red flag. For instance, it's also common for sellers to have multiple separate identities on these sites, where they may re-sell the same content but they act as totally different personalities. On any other site, like say Facebook, that would definitely be a fraud indicator. On adult sites.... less so!
Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by paulryanrogers on Friday September 13, 2024 @12:25PM (#41532695)
IME testers do the minimum to get a purchase go / no-go then immediately drop off. They don't bother trying to automate clean up.
Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by MisterBastahrd on Friday September 13, 2024 @12:37PM (#41532813)
Sounds like normal human behavior.

The problem with subscription sites like that is that paying for a month's subscription gives you access to the entire backlog of the work that a person has been doing for years. There's only so much that an OF model is gonna be able to do in terms of posing before they've done all the angles that someone would want to see. Why pay for repetitive content when you can just pay for a month and download everything, wait a year, and then do it again?

If these sites were smart, they'd implement a 3 month rolling backlog and then a set add-on price for accessing additional months worth of content.

Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by qingcharles on Friday September 13, 2024 @01:29PM (#41533289)
That actually sounds like a smart system. It would also increase the barrier for those who log in just to scrape the whole profile and upload it elsewhere.
Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by jonathanlydall on Friday September 13, 2024 @01:35PM (#41533353)
Article points out that some OF creators do exactly this, certain content is gated to subscribers who’ve been around for a minimum duration.
Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by Ekaros on Friday September 13, 2024 @01:37PM (#41533363)
Also I wonder if there is something per account anti-scraping... So you might be able to scrape everything with single account, but if you hit multiple models there is some limits? Never used OF, but could be a some limitation.
Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by HappMacDonald on Friday September 13, 2024 @07:00PM (#41535977)
Hmm.. or "$x per month of backlog" along with each month of new content. So basic tier of $x/mo gets to see content from the previous ~30 days. But if they stay subscribed, they get to see the upcoming month .. and the month from before they subscribed. Hang out another month, get the next month as it happens and the month 2 steps before subscription for a total of 5. That way staying subscribed slowly opens both past and future in lockstep. Pay for the $2x pro plan? Be getting 2 or 3 months of past content with each new month of future content that elapses.
Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by dragonwriter on Friday September 13, 2024 @07:09PM (#41536017)
> The problem with subscription sites like that is that paying for a month's subscription gives you access to the entire backlog of the work that a person has been doing for years.

If you assume that all of their content is included-with-subscription and not separately-purchased add-ons, sure, but my understanding is that that's not the most common business model on those sites.

> If these sites were smart, they'd implement a 3 month rolling backlog and then a set add-on price for accessing additional months worth of content.

Or they'd allow creators to remove previous posts, thereby giving them the ability to control whether or not they want posted content to expire, what schedule they want it to expire on, whether they want expiration applied equally to all content, and whether any or all of the expired content would be then made available to purchase as add-on content, and on what terms. (AFAIK, they do, in fact, allow this.)

Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by qingcharles on Friday September 13, 2024 @01:28PM (#41533273)
She's had essentially zero chargebacks that I know of. She's tried to figure out if it is just guys in relationships who want to check her out and then clear up all the traces?
Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by numpad0 on Friday September 13, 2024 @02:08PM (#41533615)
I feel the same, but I also feel that the desired levels of staged human intimacy actually depends on cohorts, as in it's probably not what large bulk of the users are looking for.
Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by infinitezest on Friday September 13, 2024 @12:05PM (#41532488)
You mention that OPs conclusion Doesn't align with the stats, but then you only provide a single data point. Are there other stats that you were referring to?
Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by qingcharles on Friday September 13, 2024 @01:31PM (#41533309)
OK fair point, but all the other creators she speaks to say the exact same thing. Nobody talks.

But that really reflects the Internet in general. How many people browse HN vs. vote vs. comment?

Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by tonymet on Friday September 13, 2024 @12:32PM (#41532760)
Do you pay ?
Re:Breaking Down OnlyFans' Economics by golergka on Friday September 13, 2024 @04:19PM (#41534731)
> I have a friend who is a successful OF model and only a fraction of one percent of her subscribers ever DM her.

I have a friend who produces a few successful OF models and makes about 5-10x a good SF tech salary. He has a whole army of sexters who impersonate models and DM with fans. Vast majority of his income comes not from subscriptions, but from content sold in these DMs, content which is presented as "exclusive" to the buyer.