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Re:DOJ Sues RealPage for Algorithmic Pricing Scheme That Har... by andrewmutz on Monday August 26, 2024 @07:10PM (#41363102)
To the best of my understanding I think the technology does drive up prices, but not in an anticompetitive way. I know people get really passionate about this, so I don't want to argue with people on hacker news about it, but to the best of my understanding this is what is happening:

Rental prices in the USA keep going up primarily due to a housing shortage.

Revenue optimization algorithms like realpage's do genuinely increase rents by about 2-5%, because without them fee-based property managers lower rents below market-clearing price in order to make it easier on themselves.

The increased rent that comes from using these algorithms is, in my opinion, not really anti-competitive. If you only used public information for the pricing algorithm, you'd get largely the same prices out of the system. In almost all rental markets, algorithmic pricing of any sort doesn't have high enough market share to see success by anticompetitive price-fixing, since most suppliers of housing don't use it.

Apartment rents are crazy high because there simply isnt enough housing, and we dont let people build enough dense housing near jobs. Going after Realpage, or blackrock, or landlords, or AirBnB is just trying to find a scapegoat, when the hard truth is we need to let people build more housing near where the jobs are.

Re:DOJ Sues RealPage for Algorithmic Pricing Scheme That Har... by wh0knows on Monday August 26, 2024 @08:04PM (#41363383)
This definitely requires some citations. There is no evidence that you are presenting that supports the 2-5% claim. I don’t think you are fully understanding the impact of price collusion or the suit presented here. The DOJ very clearly thinks this is anticompetitive.
Re:DOJ Sues RealPage for Algorithmic Pricing Scheme That Har... by tqi on Monday August 26, 2024 @08:20PM (#41363471)
TBF your contention that the impact of price collusion also requires citations. And the DOJ has thought a lot of things, however their track record in court has been not exactly been stellar so I'm not sure how much of a signal that is.

I suppose only time will tell.

Re:DOJ Sues RealPage for Algorithmic Pricing Scheme That Har... by andrewmutz on Monday August 26, 2024 @08:52PM (#41363672)
Honestly the strongest argument I've heard that these algorithms are anticompetitive is "The DoJ thinks they are". So maybe there's some non-public information of anticompetitive behavior.

We don't know how many housing units use Realpage pricing algorithms in 2024, but in 2017 when Realpage bought the tech, it was being used in 1.5 million rentals (https://www.realpage.com/news/realpage-to-acquire-lease-rent...) and there were 43 million rentals in the US, which means nationally they had less than 4% marketshare.

Obviously, cartel behavior (raising prices above market) does not work if you have 4% of the market. Perhaps their sales have gone up 20X in 7 years and they have enough market power for cartel behavior (doubtful)? Perhaps they have a low marketshare nationally, but they have a high marketshare in a few specific markets? Maybe, lets see what the DoJ says.

Re:DOJ Sues RealPage for Algorithmic Pricing Scheme That Har... by brandonfro on Monday August 26, 2024 @09:21PM (#41363806)
From the press release: "The complaint separately alleges that RealPage has unlawfully maintained its monopoly over commercial revenue management software for multi-family dwellings in the United States, in which RealPage commands approximately 80% market share."
Re:DOJ Sues RealPage for Algorithmic Pricing Scheme That Har... by andrewmutz on Monday August 26, 2024 @09:29PM (#41363846)
That’s 80% of companies who are using revenue management software are using Realpage, not that 80% of rental units are using Realpage revenue management software
Re:DOJ Sues RealPage for Algorithmic Pricing Scheme That Har... by sleepybrett on Monday August 26, 2024 @10:04PM (#41363989)
... yeah that's pretty much all of them minus some mom and pops who manage themselves. And from personal experience those mom and pops are selling out to management companies now so a whole neighborhood of single family rentals might be actually controlled by just one or two companies.
Re:DOJ Sues RealPage for Algorithmic Pricing Scheme That Har... by refurb on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @03:47AM (#41365369)
That’s seems like an odd anti-competitive complaint considering the customer has the option to not use such software at all?

It’s like complaining about a monopoly on lawn mowing. Owners can always choose to mow their own lawns if they don’t like the cost of hiring it out.

Re:DOJ Sues RealPage for Algorithmic Pricing Scheme That Har... by sleepybrett on Monday August 26, 2024 @09:54PM (#41363954)
The doj doesn't lose cases like these, and doesn't bring cases that are absolute slam dunks.
Re:DOJ Sues RealPage for Algorithmic Pricing Scheme That Har... by tqi on Monday August 26, 2024 @11:44PM (#41364404)
"The Department of Justice (DOJ) Antitrust Division — for the third time in the span of a year — recently failed to convince a jury that alleged agreements to fix or stabilize labor markets should be punished criminally."

https://www.skadden.com/insights/publications/2023/04/quarte...

Re:DOJ Sues RealPage for Algorithmic Pricing Scheme That Har... by LUmBULtERA on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @11:44AM (#41368820)
>Perhaps they have a low marketshare nationally, but they have a high marketshare in a few specific markets? Maybe, lets see what the DoJ says.

I think it's very much this. National market share is meaningless. I live in Northern Virginia -- some SFH that rents in another market is meaningless for someone looking for an apartment here. In this area, it seems very much that all large multi-unit apartment buildings use RealPage. Individually owned condos that are rented out exist, but of course their quantity is very tiny compared to the number of apartment towers/complexes. SFHs, likewise, are poor substitutes, because someone in the price range of a studio, 1 or 2 bedroom unit isn't going to rent a SFH and splitting a SFH brings problems of its own.

Re:DOJ Sues RealPage for Algorithmic Pricing Scheme That Har... by bryan2 on Wednesday August 28, 2024 @01:10AM (#41376149)
If this source is correct it’s 7/10 in PHX https://www.thebignewsletter.com/p/antitrust-enforcers-the-r...

They’re also super glib about it online https://www.realpage.com/analytics/phoenix-apartment-rent-gr...

IMHO automated price raising should be considered problematic or at least suspicious.

Re:DOJ Sues RealPage for Algorithmic Pricing Scheme That Har... by slt2021 on Monday August 26, 2024 @11:37PM (#41364382)
False, you are wrong.

Corporate landlords use RealPage in Austin, Minneapolis yet rents fall there because of supply of new housing.

RealPage does impact rental prices, but only marginally, and the real impact to prices is from supply constraint + demand.

If there is enough supply, any realpage algorithm wont matter much because of market forces. Market forces trump everything

Re:DOJ Sues RealPage for Algorithmic Pricing Scheme That Har... by BytesAndGears on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @02:28AM (#41365008)
> Market forces trump everything

Unless a certain company interferes with market forces — aka the whole purpose of this lawsuit.

If you need a place to live, what’re you going to do, be homeless? They have enough of the market in some cities to impact the market in a way that distorts the prices for everyone. Market forces cannot operate when companies act anticompetitively

Re:DOJ Sues RealPage for Algorithmic Pricing Scheme That Har... by slt2021 on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @02:35AM (#41365040)
I agree that realpage is the villain here, but let's not distract from the real problem.

even if realpage disappears overnight, rent prices wont fall because the new construction is outlawed by the NIMBYs.

fix new construction via zoning reform if you want to actually help people

Re:DOJ Sues RealPage for Algorithmic Pricing Scheme That Har... by michaelmrose on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @04:06AM (#41365443)
Supply will never exceed demand by very much because unlike a chair it's a very expensive good to sit on for long. Nobody profits by "overbuilding" so they won't do it nor defect on pricing given a collective target which benefits all owners.

People aren't pool balls bouncing around on a table they are fully capable of serving their interests.

Its weird to argue against the obvious conclusion that price fixing increases price

Re:DOJ Sues RealPage for Algorithmic Pricing Scheme That Har... by wh0knows on Tuesday August 27, 2024 @05:39AM (#41365828)
An anecdote does not prove that RealPage doesn’t have a greater impact in other markets… That’s just not how logic works. You also fail to consider that rents may have fallen further if RealPage was not in use.
Re:DOJ Sues RealPage for Algorithmic Pricing Scheme That Har... by claytonjy on Monday August 26, 2024 @07:22PM (#41363167)
do we know roughly how common use of this or similar technologies are in various markets?

I was under the impression this was quite common, though I have no evidence and would love to be shown otherwise!

Re:DOJ Sues RealPage for Algorithmic Pricing Scheme That Har... by sleepybrett on Monday August 26, 2024 @10:06PM (#41364004)
If it is, they better be covering their tracks.