News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by lisper on Sunday July 21, 2024 @08:04PM (#41029591)
Airline pilots have a legally mandated retirement age of 65. Running the country seems like it's at least as mission-critical as flying a plane.
Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by curt15 on Sunday July 21, 2024 @08:21PM (#41029683)
The president has a large support staff to keep the lights on most of the time. Unless the nation is physically under attack, the president's day-to-day job is probably physically less demanding than that of pilots. They have plenty of time for golf.
Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by wcunning on Sunday July 21, 2024 @08:50PM (#41029875)
None of that support staff is constitutionally allowed to make the call to respond to an imminent or ongoing attack. We need a commander in chief and we need to know who that person is -- which was the whole point of the Presidential Succession Act and the 25th amendment. This isn't even a Biden thing -- we had similar issues with Wilson, FDR, Kennedy and Reagan, and I'm sure that some administrations had similar issues that were never reported or written about afterwards.
Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by nothercastle on Sunday July 21, 2024 @10:09PM (#41030281)
Airplane can fly and land themselves for the most part it’s only in case of a emergency does a pilot really need to have quick judgment
Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by mensetmanusman on Sunday July 21, 2024 @11:34PM (#41030701)
Economic attacks are a thing.
Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by runarberg on Monday July 22, 2024 @01:18AM (#41031120)
Isn’t that true of airplanes as well? In theory support staff in the flight control room could instruct e.g. a flight attendant or even a passenger to land an airplane. However it is still not a good idea, chances are it will fail, so you do as much as feasible to prevent both pilots from becoming incapacitated in a large commercial plane.
Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by Perceval on Monday July 22, 2024 @10:25AM (#41034784)
> Unless the nation is physically under attack, the president's day-to-day job is probably physically less demanding than that of pilots.

Having worked in the White House, this is 110% wrong. The Presidency is an extraordinarily demanding job. The cognitive demands and the and physical toll it takes on you is tremendous.

Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by Suppafly on Monday July 22, 2024 @03:15PM (#41038601)
>They have plenty of time for golf.

Only the bad ones. The good ones have less downtime than a regular person. Random dudes you work with probably golf more than most presidents do.

Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by dankvectorz on Sunday July 21, 2024 @08:33PM (#41029761)
Air traffic controller here: we have a mandatory requirement age of 56.
Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by otterley on Sunday July 21, 2024 @08:35PM (#41029782)
And you can't even get hired -- by law -- if you're over 30 years old. It's absurd. The FAA is complaining that they don't have enough ATCs, but have done absolutely nothing to broaden the hiring pool.

"We've tried nothing, and we're all out of ideas!"

Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by tjohns on Sunday July 21, 2024 @10:06PM (#41030260)
The 30 year maximum age for hiring is there to make sure controllers have enough time working to earn pension benefits before mandatory retirement.

Hiring someone older would be setting them up for a very bad time later in life.

Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by photonbeam on Sunday July 21, 2024 @10:55PM (#41030504)
Thats logic doesn't fly for any other profession
Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by tjohns on Monday July 22, 2024 @12:03AM (#41030838)
It's because no other profession has the combination of (1) forcing people out of a highly trained role so young (with no options to reuse those skills in any other roles - forcing folks to go have to go back to square one and get a new professional education to move anywhere else), along with (2) the peculiarities of a government pension.

Unless you overhaul the way government workers earn retirement, or we decide that it's safe to employ older air traffic controllers, any other choice would be highly exploitative.

Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by light_hue_1 on Monday July 22, 2024 @01:44AM (#41031232)
Yes that logic applies.

Any federal law enforcement position has this. For example, for the FBI or the secret service, you must enter by 37 and retire by 56.

Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by otterley on Monday July 22, 2024 @11:55AM (#41035861)
Shouldn't it be up to the individual to determine whether they want to take that bargain? What about those people who did well enough in their previous careers for retirement not to be a concern and desire a new technical challenge that serves the public?
Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by jjk166 on Monday July 22, 2024 @06:33PM (#41040557)
If you can make an exception to the rules to force them to retire early, you can make an exception to the rules to let them earn pension benefits faster.
Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by Dylan16807 on Wednesday July 24, 2024 @02:49AM (#41054252)
> Hiring someone older would be setting them up for a very bad time later in life.

If they spend 20 years there, and get 20 years worth of pension, what's the problem? They can combine it with whatever savings and pensions they had before being hired at 36.

Unless you're saying they don't get any pension, in which case stop screwing people over that way and cut the pension qualification to 5 years or less.

Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by TeaBrain on Monday July 22, 2024 @01:17AM (#41031115)
I've heard that the bottleneck is apparently the the number of students that can be admitted to the FAA Academy to be trained, not the number of applicants.
Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by tbihl on Monday July 22, 2024 @09:51PM (#41041786)
I don't know what the state of the art is, but in the 2010s there was a huge mess where a 'biographical evaluation' test was required of ATC applicants, with the timing such that you took it after the FAA prep courses. The evaluation was thinly veiled racism, utterly uncorrelated with ATC performance, and one of the big outcomes was that anyone taking the prep courses was very likely to get weeded out by the biographical evaluation and thus suffer a total loss of his time and financial investment in the course.

So ,that was another problem they were causing themselves in manning.

Edited to add documentation: https://kaisoapbox.github.io/projects/faa_biographical_asses...

Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by watwut on Monday July 22, 2024 @11:14AM (#41035402)
The real reason is that pilots work in shitty conditions and their education is expensive. And skills are not transferable making it all pretty bad deal.
Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by otterley on Monday July 22, 2024 @11:56AM (#41035872)
We're discussing ATCs, not pilots. (And pilots are frequently hired after the age of 30.)
Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by shiroiushi on Sunday July 21, 2024 @08:59PM (#41029918)
Why on earth does anyone actually go into that career?
Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by duffyjp on Monday July 22, 2024 @09:09AM (#41033931)
Retiring at 56 with a pension sounds pretty good to me.
Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by shiroiushi on Monday July 22, 2024 @08:01PM (#41041118)
From a somewhat low-paying job that has no transferable skills? How big is the pension? If it's not nearly as large as the person's prior paycheck, it doesn't sound like a good deal at all.
Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by arcanemachiner on Sunday July 21, 2024 @08:35PM (#41029774)
That's gotta be a pretty well-studied number.
Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by otterley on Sunday July 21, 2024 @08:36PM (#41029790)
It isn't. Whether you're forced to retire should be calibrated to the individual's capabilities, not based on a statistical calculation.
Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by account42 on Monday July 22, 2024 @10:03AM (#41034503)
Assessments of individuals can be gamed. Hard objective limits cannot.
Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by otterley on Monday July 22, 2024 @12:00PM (#41035918)
It's really difficult to game timed and proctored aptitude tests. We've refined these systems pretty well over time. I can't imagine how anyone would game a test like, say, the LSAT unless they had the answers in advance or fraudulently substituted someone to take the test for them. And both cases are pretty easy to detect nowadays.
Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by standardUser on Sunday July 21, 2024 @08:35PM (#41029781)
You have a really strong union.
Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by buildsjets on Sunday July 21, 2024 @09:08PM (#41029971)
You are joking, right? You cannot seriously claim that NATCA is anything but a paper tiger if you knew anything about the history of ATC unionization in the USA. President Regan fired all 11,000 members of the actual strong ATC union, PATCO, and barred them from government jobs for life. NATCA never bothered to negotiate their rights back. Some REALLY strong union.

https://libraries.uta.edu/news-events/blog/1981-patco-strike

Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by standardUser on Sunday July 21, 2024 @09:13PM (#41029992)
They collect pensions in their 50's. I'm not sure what metric you judge a union by, but most people look at things like pay and medical and when they collect pensions.
Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by arrosenberg on Sunday July 21, 2024 @09:17PM (#41030005)
> I'm not sure what metric you judge a union by

Their ability to collectively bargain effectively. It doesn’t matter how good their current compensation is - they aren’t getting the fair market rate without the ability to bargain as a union. Its an example of government and corporate interests colluding to suppress labor wages.

Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by standardUser on Sunday July 21, 2024 @09:24PM (#41030044)
They make 6 figures with great benefits and retire young. By exactly how much are air traffic controllers being underpaid by market standards?
Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by arrosenberg on Sunday July 21, 2024 @10:05PM (#41030250)
They have an incredibly valuable and high stress job, and should be compensated appropriately. We don’t know their actual value, because as stated, they are not allowed to negotiate on even terms thanks to Ronald Reagan and the conservative anti-labor movement.
Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by inferiorhuman on Sunday July 21, 2024 @09:40PM (#41030117)
https://www.faa.gov/jobs/career_fields/aviation_careers

https://www.faa.gov/jobs/working_here/benefits

Median pay is $127,805 and by law the salary is capped at $221,900. Training salary starts at under $67,000 in the Bay Area and is much lower elsewhere. They can't strike and are actively being outsourced. Look up the KSQL controller on youtube to see how well that's going.

Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by standardUser on Sunday July 21, 2024 @08:36PM (#41029789)
Political jobs require few if any fine motor skills. Why, we once even had a paraplegic president during wartime!
Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by throw4847285 on Monday July 22, 2024 @09:40AM (#41034257)
Ironically, FDR pulled a Biden but succeeded. By early 1944 he was already dying of cancer and hid it, as he hid his disability. He made it through the election, and then died a few months after his inauguration leaving Truman in charge. Of course, FDR was more popular than Biden, but I do believe it was his closest election.
Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by garaetjjte on Monday July 22, 2024 @01:48PM (#41037252)
Probably easier to pull that off in era before televised debates.
Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by red-iron-pine on Sunday July 21, 2024 @08:52PM (#41029885)
airline pilots physically control the plane on a minute to minute basis. they need to be alert, have good eyes and ears, etc.

the president has entire staffs, including highly qualified generals, bureaucrats, line workers, etc. to drive the ship.

Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by apwell23 on Sunday July 21, 2024 @09:35PM (#41030096)
They don't run the country. Capitalists do. And thank god for that. Can you imagine AOC, MTG or Trump actually turning the levers power.
Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by philsnow on Sunday July 21, 2024 @10:27PM (#41030373)
I heard just last night that domestically it’s now 68 years (or somebody is trying to make it 68), but this sucks for pilots who’ve been flying for a long time and are now doing mostly international flights, because the intl age is still 65. The upshot is they have to fly only domestically from 65-68 (and this can require retraining on smaller planes they don’t have currency with).
Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by shiroiushi on Monday July 22, 2024 @04:40AM (#41032091)
It's still bad, because at that age, close to retirement, they surely don't want to deal with all the nonsense and mayhem that US domestic passengers cause.
Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by heelix on Sunday July 21, 2024 @10:46PM (#41030459)
Similar for air traffic control. They recently opted to not increase that age for ATC. All of them should have the same standard.
Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by drewcoo on Sunday July 21, 2024 @10:51PM (#41030489)
And no one past grade 12 is eligible to be a Girl Scout. Running the country seems like it's at least as mission-critical as selling Samosas.

That's a silly argument.

Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by doomemax on Monday July 22, 2024 @03:35AM (#41031781)
That's a false equivalency.

Airline pilots have a mandatory retirement age based on health and safety studies associated with the risks and requirements of flying a plane.

Girl scout age requirements, as you might imagine, aren't based on the same criteria.

Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by jonp888 on Monday July 22, 2024 @03:39AM (#41031796)
That's a completely different situation.

It's measurable biological certainty that reaction times as measured in milliseconds and fine motor control degrade with age. Vision and hearing also degrade. The nature of hands on control of flying a plane means there are no ways to compensate for this.

None of this applies to a politician making decision in a time span of hours, days or months and who can delegate tasks as they wish.

Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by hnfong on Monday July 22, 2024 @04:15AM (#41031944)
It's a completely different situation for sure.

But I think the argument is still valid for other reasons.

Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by brnt on Monday July 22, 2024 @04:38AM (#41032071)
> That's a completely different situation.

Yet Biden (and for some reason not Trump, who's well documented to have the same kind of senior moments but they rarely make it to the news) is raked over the coals for them all the same. Why do we ask the president to be able to walk a stairs, remember pointless ceremony, and all the other things that have nothing to do with performance in office (on which there has been next to zero discussion this cycle)?

I can see that age is a risk factor you don't want for a commander in chief, anymore than you want it in fighter pilots. If so, age limits seem reasonable.

Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by nativeit on Monday July 22, 2024 @10:26AM (#41034791)
Donald Trump doesn’t need to be nuanced, or even marginally informed, so his cognitive decline is hardly relevant to his role as Head Performatively Outraged Xenophobic Tax Cutter.
Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by Projectiboga on Monday July 22, 2024 @10:46AM (#41035045)
A counter argument for no, or better a higher age, limit is experience. I'm talking President. But some kind of limit, maybe 80 or 75, with some kind of fitness check up at Walter read Military hospital required for any over 40, 50, there are cases or 'early dementia'.
Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by foldingmoney on Tuesday July 23, 2024 @09:09AM (#41045608)
iirc the pilot retirement age is at least in part due to radiation exposure.
Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by lisper on Tuesday July 23, 2024 @10:54AM (#41046620)
Citation needed. (I'm a (private) pilot and I've never heard this.)