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Re:10% of Cubans have left Cuba in the last year by zdragnar on Saturday July 20, 2024 @03:29PM (#41019037)
I think that's really underselling the political persecution that many have suffered in Cuba. It's far and away from just wanting reparations for land grabs.

We have sanctions on Cuba for the same reason we have sanctions on Russia and Venezuela now- we don't want to fund what their government is doing, and allying with them gives us little to nothing in return.

That said, it's pretty obvious that economic sanctions aren't bringing about regime change. I don't think anyone has the stomach for putting boots on the ground, though.

Re:10% of Cubans have left Cuba in the last year by joshlemer on Saturday July 20, 2024 @04:10PM (#41019395)
It may not in the short or medium term cause regime change, but sufficiently large sanctions on a country do stop it from growing in influence, wealth and power. Eventually, after some number of generations, Cuba could be so poor in comparison to the rising tide of the rest of the world, that it's not even able to defend itself or maintain government control. At some point, the disparity in power becomes overwhelming and you have super high tech society surrounding stone age cave men.
Re:10% of Cubans have left Cuba in the last year by dullcrisp on Saturday July 20, 2024 @04:30PM (#41019580)
Can that really happen? Won’t one of the visiting tourists bring news of the wheel or what have you eventually?

Seems more likely sanctions would cause a steady state where the sanctioned country is some n months/years behind where it would otherwise be, speaking as a complete geopolitical layman anyway.

Re:10% of Cubans have left Cuba in the last year by mrbombastic on Saturday July 20, 2024 @06:23PM (#41020572)
Not OP but the problem is not awareness of modern solutions that prevents sanctioned societies from modernizing, the isolation from trade prevents local industry from growing which keeps society living at subsistence levels and when everyone is poor you don’t have a class of people with spare time or the resources necessary to build up local industry that brings about capital that brings about infrastructure modernization etc.
Re:10% of Cubans have left Cuba in the last year by zdragnar on Saturday July 20, 2024 @04:40PM (#41019661)
The problem is that not enough nations are participating in the sanctions. Multiple generations should have been plenty of time, especially given the harms done to the population in the interim.
Re:10% of Cubans have left Cuba in the last year by tuxoko on Saturday July 20, 2024 @05:40PM (#41020211)
> That said, it's pretty obvious that economic sanctions aren't bringing about regime change.

On the flip side, you have China, where US pretty much helped build up their economy and hoped for a peaceful and democratic outcome. How well did that go?

Re:10% of Cubans have left Cuba in the last year by ImJamal on Saturday July 20, 2024 @05:51PM (#41020303)
The USSR and China and prime examples of sanctioning vs opening up. One is still around and persucting its people and the other is on the dust bin of history. The problem with the Cuba sanctions is that a large chunk of countries aren't sanctioning Cuba. If everybody got behind the sanctions regime change would happen. Half assing it won't cut it.
Re:10% of Cubans have left Cuba in the last year by sumedh on Saturday July 20, 2024 @09:48PM (#41021745)
> the other is on the dust bin of history.

and yet US is spending taxpayer money to defend Ukraine.

Re:10% of Cubans have left Cuba in the last year by arrosenberg on Saturday July 20, 2024 @11:02PM (#41022059)
Why wouldn’t we spend a small fraction of our military budget on bleeding an adversary dry?
Re:10% of Cubans have left Cuba in the last year by jazzyjackson on Sunday July 21, 2024 @09:21AM (#41024893)
same reason you don't corner a rabid animal
Re:10% of Cubans have left Cuba in the last year by arrosenberg on Sunday July 21, 2024 @11:45AM (#41025895)
The MLRS weapon systems shouldn’t be creating corners if deployed effectively.
Re:10% of Cubans have left Cuba in the last year by stale2002 on Sunday July 21, 2024 @10:26AM (#41025321)
They aren't corned though. All they have to do is leave. Then they stop losing so many troops and they have their sanctions lifted.
Re:10% of Cubans have left Cuba in the last year by hunchback_ on Sunday July 21, 2024 @02:28PM (#41027050)
What you wrote here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41025321

"So?

I'd rather live in the modern day, "unequally" with the rich, than starve or die of disease equally with the rich of the middle ages.

Just because the rich have 100Xed in quality of life over the last century, doesn't negate the fact that the poor have 10Xed in quality of life.

Making everyone equal is easy. Just make them all equally dead, starving, or miserable, just like they were in past centuries."

Shows a lack of historical knowledge. If all were so miserable, how did they built the greatest civilization, Christendom? Did Newton or Leibniz starve to death? The picture you are drawing here of past centuries is ahistorical and completely disregards the unbelievable quality of art and architecture that was possible during times where people were, according to you, "dead, starving, or miserable". (As if they aren't today.)

I don't want to live at all. I would kill myself immediately did I not fear God, Christ, and eternal damnation.

Re:10% of Cubans have left Cuba in the last year by arrosenberg on Sunday July 21, 2024 @04:13PM (#41027750)
Shows a lack of historical knowledge. All that wealth of Imperial Europe was built off the backs of serfs and slaves.
Re:10% of Cubans have left Cuba in the last year by akho on Monday July 22, 2024 @08:51AM (#41033800)
The Jackson-Vanik amendment was only repealed in 2012, at the same point when the Magnitsky act was signed. I don't think Putin & co see a lifting of sanctions as a possibility, given past experience.
Re:10% of Cubans have left Cuba in the last year by stale2002 on Tuesday July 23, 2024 @01:00AM (#41042655)
Ok, that doesn't change the fact that all that is happening is that they are losing more and more lives, military power, and are suffering significant economic damage.

Thats the point. They are taking nothing but losses. All for some land that is now worthless after the war.

Re:10% of Cubans have left Cuba in the last year by akho on Tuesday July 23, 2024 @04:57AM (#41044056)
They obviously see things differently. You cannot claim that the particular sanctions regime in place pushes Putin & co towards your desired course of action without understanding their motivations.
Re:10% of Cubans have left Cuba in the last year by stale2002 on Tuesday July 23, 2024 @12:19PM (#41047760)
> without understanding their motivations

Oh they are absolutely have motivations against their own people dieing in the hundreds of thousands and they have motivations against them losing significant military assets and having massive amounts of economic damages.

Those are normal motivations they every county has.

That's why the best way to get them to change behavior is to "motivate" them with those consequences.

Current analysis is that Russia has maybe another year and a half left in their war before it ends due to these "motivational factors".

Still a ways to go, but manageable.

Re:10% of Cubans have left Cuba in the last year by thehappypm on Sunday July 21, 2024 @06:42PM (#41028956)
Define “small fraction” please.
Re:10% of Cubans have left Cuba in the last year by arrosenberg on Sunday July 21, 2024 @11:27PM (#41030669)
We've spent a bit over $100B in 2.5 years. Our annual military budget is about $900B, so about 5% annual to strategically neuter the Russian military.
Re:10% of Cubans have left Cuba in the last year by mrguyorama on Tuesday July 23, 2024 @01:47PM (#41048824)
A few hundred Bradleys and Abrams, weapons systems that were designed to murder soviets, which we built by the thousands, in the hope that we could defend Europe from an invasion it turns out wasn't ever likely to happen.

Those machines are not fit for a war with China, which is our current fear, and have to be replaced anyway. It literally costs obscene amounts of money to scrap and disarm them, but it turns out it's very cheap to let them save a few Ukrainian lives.

Nearly every dollar "spent" for Ukraine was either spent in the 80s military build up or is loaned to Ukraine so they can purchase our stuff.

Re:10% of Cubans have left Cuba in the last year by randallsquared on Sunday July 21, 2024 @02:00AM (#41022774)
The US (and Russia...) made a commitment to protect Ukraine in exchange for Ukraine giving up its newly-owned nuclear weapons after the USSR broke up.
Re:10% of Cubans have left Cuba in the last year by ImJamal on Sunday July 21, 2024 @08:29PM (#41029732)
Are you suggesting that USSR is invading Ukraine? Maybe we are living in different realities since we the USSR no longer exist.
Re:10% of Cubans have left Cuba in the last year by sumedh on Sunday July 21, 2024 @08:56PM (#41029906)
Are you suggesting that Russia is not USSR's legal successor. Maybe we are living in different realities since Russia still exists.
Re:10% of Cubans have left Cuba in the last year by ImJamal on Tuesday July 23, 2024 @07:07AM (#41044740)
Russia was a state of the USSR, not the USSR itself. That is like saying the Roman Empire exists today because Italy is the successor.
Re:10% of Cubans have left Cuba in the last year by racional on Tuesday July 23, 2024 @11:28AM (#41046999)
Don't make such far-flung analogies.

The Russia/USSR transition is more like that of the Roman Republic to the Principate/Dominate. Or the different stages of other closely related empires throughout history after dealing with internal regime, partial reversals and so forth.

Even Putin sees Russia/USSR as parts of a organic historic continuum, and this is a key component of his rhetoric. That the USSR's territorial losses are Russia's losses and must be reversed if Russia it to "save face" and so on.

Re:10% of Cubans have left Cuba in the last year by pvaldes on Monday July 22, 2024 @06:56PM (#41040694)
In some aspects we could say that, given the high number of USSR tanks, ships and weapons that are being destroyed by the Ukrainian army just right now.

USSR was a necessary collaborator in this invasion.

Re:10% of Cubans have left Cuba in the last year by ImJamal on Tuesday July 23, 2024 @07:08AM (#41044749)
The USSR is gone. It can't collaborate with anything. Did your great-great-great-great-great grandparents who died before the internet collbarate with you to write this post?
Re:10% of Cubans have left Cuba in the last year by thinkcontext on Saturday July 20, 2024 @09:37PM (#41021701)
> allying with them gives us little to nothing in return.

Recent events have shown that to be very much not the case. Over the past few weeks we've had news of the Russian Navy paying port calls and the Chinese building major signals intelligence capabilities. Wouldn't it be better to have them as an ally?

It's always interesting to contrast our relationships with Cuba vs Vietnam. We fought a long hot war with Vietnam yet today we have good relations with them. Obviously we can't say we would have a good relationship with Cuba if we had been nicer to them but it certainly makes me think.

Re:10% of Cubans have left Cuba in the last year by zdragnar on Monday July 22, 2024 @02:42PM (#41038109)
> Wouldn't it be better to have them as an ally?

I strongly suspect the possibility of normalizing relations while the Castros held power would have been impossible.

I had actually expected some progress on this front after they got new blood in a few years ago, but he's much the same, and given their relations with other sanctioned countries like North Korea, and calling Israel a terrorist state, I don't really see much desire for change from either side.

Re:10% of Cubans have left Cuba in the last year by slantedview on Saturday July 20, 2024 @11:35PM (#41022184)
> We have sanctions on Cuba for the same reason we have sanctions on Russia and Venezuela

Many senior government officials over the years, including then Vice President Cheney, have plainly said that our interest in Venezuela is their oil. The sanctions, as in any country, are about wanting control over their resources.

Re:10% of Cubans have left Cuba in the last year by refurb on Sunday July 21, 2024 @12:59AM (#41022492)
I find it odd when the left criticizes the US for supporting dictatorships in places like Iraq, South America, etc.

Then when it comes to Cuba, another dictatorship, the left complains the US is applying sanctions.

It seems inconsistent.

Re:10% of Cubans have left Cuba in the last year by makeitdouble on Sunday July 21, 2024 @03:57AM (#41023336)
There is a huge gap between overthrowing regimes to put your own dictator in place, and not putting sanctions toward a neighboring country.

Most people are pushing for the latter, to get a more neutral approach to foreign relations.

Re:10% of Cubans have left Cuba in the last year by defrost on Sunday July 21, 2024 @01:02AM (#41022504)
I find it odd when people cast "the left" as some kind of homogeneous singular mass.

It seems divorced from reality.

Re:10% of Cubans have left Cuba in the last year by refurb on Sunday July 21, 2024 @02:50AM (#41023040)
My statement doesn't assume a homogenous singular mass.

There are opinions that come from different groups on the political spectrum, that pop up again and again and can be regarded as "common beliefs".

My comment is based on that.

Re:10% of Cubans have left Cuba in the last year by keybored on Sunday July 21, 2024 @08:46AM (#41024698)
- Supporting regimes

- Working against them with sanctions

Don’t you see any other options here?

Re:10% of Cubans have left Cuba in the last year by ossobuco on Sunday July 21, 2024 @09:34AM (#41024962)
> we don't want to fund what their government is doing

What is their government doing that is so terrible?

Anyway let's suppose Cuba is a brutal dictatorship, even though it really isn't by any metric. Why are there no sanctions on Saudi Arabia? Why no sanctions on Taiwan during the white terror? Why no sanctions on Chile when they threw alive protesters from flying helicopters? I could go on for a while.

Re:10% of Cubans have left Cuba in the last year by hollandheese on Sunday July 21, 2024 @02:17PM (#41026965)
>What is their government doing that is so terrible?

Surviving while Communist.

Re:10% of Cubans have left Cuba in the last year by phyzix5761 on Sunday July 21, 2024 @06:58PM (#41029092)
My whole family was murdered by the government of Cuba because they verbally disagreed with Fidel and communism. No crimes other than speaking out were committed. That's what they're doing that is so terrible.
Re:10% of Cubans have left Cuba in the last year by ossobuco on Tuesday July 23, 2024 @07:33AM (#41044884)
That's how revolutions work, if you disagree you usually get killed.

The thing is that people would get killed for disagreeing even under Batista. If your family was happy with Batista then I don't think they were in a clean line of business.

Re:10% of Cubans have left Cuba in the last year by zdragnar on Tuesday July 23, 2024 @10:25AM (#41046310)
The US did put an arms embargo on Batista's government, though far too late given the violent suppression of the protests towards the end.
Re:10% of Cubans have left Cuba in the last year by ossobuco on Tuesday July 23, 2024 @10:45AM (#41046518)
I agree, especially considering that Batista had been sold arms until 1958, when the fights with the rebels had been ongoing for a while already (1956 I believe). The result is that Batista fought the rebels using USA weapons, embargo or not.
Re:10% of Cubans have left Cuba in the last year by phyzix5761 on Wednesday July 24, 2024 @01:22PM (#41059429)
Batista was a dictator too. No one, except criminals, liked him.