News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Volkswagen invests up to $5B in Rivian by neals on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @04:21AM (#40797586)
VW has had large problems getting their software processes straight. They've thrown money at the problem for years (instead of changing company culture, which needs to happen first) so I'm not surprised they'd buy a whole car company just for the software.
Re:Volkswagen invests up to $5B in Rivian by lostlogin on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @05:20AM (#40798032)
So there is Apple, a massive company that makes software and has struggled with its car project, and VW, a massive company that makes cars and has struggle with software.

In another universe, I wonder if this could have been a partnership?

Re:Volkswagen invests up to $5B in Rivian by dtech on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @05:24AM (#40798063)
Apparently working together with Apple is extremely difficult because they are so controlling and demanding, and that is even without the cultural and timezone difference, so I doubt it's viable.
Re:Volkswagen invests up to $5B in Rivian by ajb on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @05:46AM (#40798175)
Apple regularly does acquisitions (like, multiple per year), so I guess it's not impossible - but they seem to usually be much smaller companies which presumably assimilate. Their last big one[1] seems to have been the purchase of Intel's smartphone modem for $1B, still a lot smaller than VW's market cap of $58B.

A company which does multiple acquisitions per year will have a team specialising in the integration of acquired companies, and practice and institutional knowledge of the issues of doing so. But a merger would be different - a smaller company will slot in under some existing executive, with maybe the CEO promoted into the top team if it's a really hot company; a merger would require the merger of two executive teams, which would be a difficult event. So yeah, might not be viable.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mergers_and_acquisitio...

Re:Volkswagen invests up to $5B in Rivian by constantcrying on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @06:03AM (#40798269)
>Their last big one[1] seems to have been the purchase of Intel's smartphone modem for $1B, still a lot smaller than VW's market cap of $58B.

That isn't how you can buy VW, the market cap is totally misleading. VW Group has a bizarre structure, it is actually directly controlled by some Porsche Holding company, which is directly owned by the Porsche–Piëch family.

Re:Volkswagen invests up to $5B in Rivian by ajb on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @09:40AM (#40799933)
Oh it ended up owned by Porsch? So confusing. I remember the short squeeze, but usually I don't follow this stuff.

I wasn't really quoting $58B as the price Apple would pay - just an indicator of the size of VW. But probably the wrong one I guess?

I know that a merger doesn't involve paying the market cap. It's more about convincing the shareholders that their final shares in the merged company would be worth more than the sum of whatever shares they have in each part. If it's legally structured as an acquisition, the purchase price is a bit of a fiction.

Re:Volkswagen invests up to $5B in Rivian by constantcrying on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @10:20AM (#40800406)
>Oh it ended up owned by Porsch?

No, VW Group owns Porsche, the car brand. There is also Porsche SE which is a tiny company, which owns controlling shares over VW Group.

The short squeeze happened because there aren't actually that many shares around which you can buy.

>I know that a merger doesn't involve paying the market cap. It's more about convincing the shareholders that their final shares in the merged company would be worth more than the sum of whatever shares they have in each part.

Shareholders opinions are totally irrelevant. The only thing that would matter is the family who owns Porsche SE agreeing, which isn't going to happen.

Market cap is the product of the number of shares and what the market thinks a single share is worth. So the market cap matters as it puts a bound on what the price could be. But in this case the price at which shareholders would accept such an acquisition is irrelevant, as their is a single shareholder who holds controlling shares and gets to make the decision.

Re:Volkswagen invests up to $5B in Rivian by londons_explore on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @05:50AM (#40798196)
Might make sense to acquire part of VW. Ie. one or two brands, one or two factories, and a chunk of the design team.

Then sign an IP/licensing deal that both halves of the new company have access to most/all of the IP developed historically.

Re:Volkswagen invests up to $5B in Rivian by swores on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @06:04AM (#40798276)
Or even make it a full acquisition, but allow VW to remain a separate organisation with its own CEO and own board who answer to Apple's shareholders (and/or to the very top Apple execs) rather than to a separate group of shareholders?

I.E. securing any future VW profits, and ensuring that the IP licensing deal is indefinite, while staying hands off and allowing VW to keep doing what they do with the exception of using Apple software.

Re:Volkswagen invests up to $5B in Rivian by constantcrying on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @06:17AM (#40798335)
VW has comparable revenue to Apple, 4 times the employees, twice the assets and triple the equity. Additionally it can only be bought by negotiating with a single family.

No, apple can not buy VW. This idea is totally absurd.

Re:Volkswagen invests up to $5B in Rivian by swores on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @06:21AM (#40798354)
If you look a few comments higher than mine, you'll see that the context of my comment and the one I replied to start from:

> In another universe, I wonder [about Apple + VW joining forces]

We're not speculating on what might happen tomorrow, just discussing hypotheticals for the scenario in which those companies were wanting to be partners of some kind.

Re:Volkswagen invests up to $5B in Rivian by constantcrying on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @06:42AM (#40798465)
Seems like a complete nightmare. A Californian software company and a German car maker, seems about as conflicting as possible.
Re:Volkswagen invests up to $5B in Rivian by swores on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @07:03AM (#40798586)
Agree with you, that's why my thought was that, if they were to do anything, an acquisition in which VW retains their autonomy and leadership would make more sense than one in which the two executive teams merge and attempt to manage the new dual-culture single company.
Re:Volkswagen invests up to $5B in Rivian by sveme on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @08:23AM (#40799155)
The state of Lower Saxony, where VW is located, is also a 20% stakeholder and politically extremely influential.
Re:Volkswagen invests up to $5B in Rivian by londons_explore on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @06:15AM (#40798325)
Unfortunately, with our current capitalistic system, it doesn't make sense to buy a company which has no intention to be as profitable as you are.

Basically, shareholders expect you to invest all the cash in your stockpile for a similar percentage return (on average), and they won't want you to invest in a capital heavy but almost profitless industry like carmaking unless you think you can turn it into a business of similar profit levels per unit investment to your existing business.

Re:Volkswagen invests up to $5B in Rivian by constantcrying on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @06:05AM (#40798280)
The potential brands which can build a car on their own are VW, Audi and Porsche. It is pretty much unimaginable that they would be sold to Apple.

And what would apple even do with the teams? They now have 10k people in Germany ready to design a car for them, sounds totally nightmarish.

Re:Volkswagen invests up to $5B in Rivian by epolanski on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @06:05AM (#40798285)
> still a lot smaller than VW's market cap of $58B

Just to point out, that doesn't mean that you can buy VW for $58B...

Re:Volkswagen invests up to $5B in Rivian by morbicer on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @09:32AM (#40799851)
Apple makes stellar HW but their software is kinda meh.

Crippled ipadOS, lagging Safari, abysmal window management of macOS, total disaster of XCode, dumb Siri, degrading iTunes and iCloud isn't spotless either.

Re:Volkswagen invests up to $5B in Rivian by lostlogin on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @12:02PM (#40801491)
Most of my issues with their software are on the Mac. For things they really care about, they can pull finger and make them good. Quite why they can’t find the resources to fix up more of their software is a bit mystifying.
Re:Volkswagen invests up to $5B in Rivian by constantcrying on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @12:34PM (#40801785)
Have you recently used a Windows PC? Or an Android phone? It is legitimately terrible.
Re:Volkswagen invests up to $5B in Rivian by morbicer on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @12:40PM (#40801839)
Windows is terrible but that's a low bar. I am currently on iphone but have some android devices and they are fine.
Re:Volkswagen invests up to $5B in Rivian by raverbashing on Thursday June 27, 2024 @05:54AM (#40808885)
You hire the most distinguished executive who still asks his secretary to print the emails you get, and then you're surprised it doesn't work
Re:Volkswagen invests up to $5B in Rivian by constantcrying on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @04:24AM (#40797608)
>They've thrown money at the problem for years (instead of changing company culture, which needs to happen first)

I don't think that is true at all. They even tried to create a separate company, just to focus on software, so that culture there could develop differently. It just didn't work out.

Re:Volkswagen invests up to $5B in Rivian by dacryn on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @04:46AM (#40797801)
because they forced their policies and standards onto the new startup company.

It's the classic mistake: you setup a separate 'startup style' company to move fast, but give them too much budget and too much rules, so they just spend the budget on rebuilding the same mess instead of innovation. It's a consultant heaven to make a lot of money, but in the end this really only works if the group company stays in the dark for a considerable amount of time and doesn't impose their ideas

Re:Volkswagen invests up to $5B in Rivian by Moldoteck on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @05:15AM (#40797994)
they tried to create a separate company, but culture was imported. It's called vw group for a reason. They have lot's of 'bureaucracy' and this is not specific just for vw. That's why things do happen so slow - changing the processes that do already work (poorly but work) is super hard when there are lot's of ppl that do praise these procedures
Re:Volkswagen invests up to $5B in Rivian by MrBuddyCasino on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @04:54AM (#40797851)
> They even tried to create a separate company

This is an attempt to sidestep the politically hairy problem of changing a company’s culture. This never works because the daughter company either gets eaten by the more powerful parent company‘s culture, or their output is ignored and never integrated back into the parent.

Re:Volkswagen invests up to $5B in Rivian by constantcrying on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @04:56AM (#40797866)
What do you do instead? The VW processes for mechanical, manufacturing and mechatronics engineering seem to work reasonably well. How do you change the culture of such a large company, without breaking what works?
Re:Volkswagen invests up to $5B in Rivian by n_ary on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @07:52AM (#40798883)
The core issues of such daughter concerns is that, despite being a separate thing, a lot of "leadership" people from core management are shipped to run the separate thing.

These leadership people carry over the whole process and cultural mess into the new place while claiming to be "startup culture". Secondly, one major issue that frequently occurs but goes unnoticed is that, the pay is abysmal.

Basically, the leadership expect to hire talents for the same pay(or sometimes less) of what is paid in core group but forget that core group gets plenty other benefits(union benefits are immense things, educational budgets, pursue some other stuff for a while and then come back anytime to take up where you left off, family benefits, discounts, profit sharing etc.) and get confused when people obviously don't want to work for that kind of pay minus all the benefits.

So eventually, they hire a lot of expensive consultants, who create lot of busywork to induce artificial lack of manpower to hire more of them. Eventually, a lot of budget is spent, only thing left to show are a lot of irrelevant proof of concepts. Then core group finance people comes asking for massive budget cuts, when all of these consultants leave(with any domain knowledge) and suddenly a small firefighter internal people have to start cleaning up the mess and work long hours. Thanks to good social benefits, most people internally get frustrated due to such bad conditions and leave and then eventually the company folds.

Sadly, it is mostly a repeat playbook of big names and I have seen it happen three times already. I don't blame the consultant firms as it is not their fault to make as much billing as possible because they know there will be budget cut anytime. I don't blame internal people leaving because, they are never paid fairly, subjected to very bad conditions and they are free to leave and care about their wellbeing.

Re:Volkswagen invests up to $5B in Rivian by sveme on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @08:25AM (#40799178)
Leadership at Cariad also seems to have a background in mechanical engineering, so those processes translate. You need people with hands-on software engineering experience to create a new culture that works for software development.
Re:Volkswagen invests up to $5B in Rivian by n_ary on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @01:13PM (#40802169)
Am not sure about Cariad leadership, but the three failed projects I have been part of, the leadership was adequately technical(some mechanical, some aeronautical, some electrical, some material and many other, but they had been removed from the ground for so long that they mostly forgot how the actual engineering works and start hiring expensive consultant-management to insulate themselves from all liabilities of dealing with the actual people.

I kid you not, one of the failed project had only 1/7th of actual engineers building the software(and partially hardware), 4/7th were mostly leadership and management and rest 2/7th mostly HR, finance, regulation, legal, supply chain etc. And out of that 1/7th, only 10% were inhouse engineers, rest were expensive rented consultants, who were mostly busy doing politics.

The other two were slightly healthy ratio but managed to burn out the hardworking people by not understanding the actual requirements and introducing 200 steps of red-tape on everything.

Re:Volkswagen invests up to $5B in Rivian by lucianbr on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @05:25AM (#40798072)
I expect people making tens of millions per year to figure it out.

Are there no auto manufacturers with ok software? Presumably it's not impossible.

Re:Volkswagen invests up to $5B in Rivian by dagw on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @07:01AM (#40798575)
Are there no auto manufacturers with ok software?

The only in house auto software people don't seem to completely hate is Tesla.

Re:Volkswagen invests up to $5B in Rivian by MrBuddyCasino on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @05:24AM (#40798068)
You recognize that software engineering is different from mechanical/electrical engineering and stop shooting yourself in the foot. This will only happen when a competent software guy is part of the top executive suite and has sufficient freedom to do what is necessary.

I think the chances are slim, considering the general ineptitude regarding software development in German companies. They will get better until finally arriving at mediocre, but they will never be as great as American companies.

I hope one day they manage to implement a functioning CarPlay in their VW Polos, it has been broken since years.

Re:Volkswagen invests up to $5B in Rivian by kcb on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @08:53AM (#40799455)
Don't treat all software development as "IT".
Re:Volkswagen invests up to $5B in Rivian by constantcrying on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @09:03AM (#40799569)
What did you mean? Where did I even come close to doing that?
Re:Volkswagen invests up to $5B in Rivian by kcb on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @09:28AM (#40799813)
Sorry, I meant as a response to your question. But point is, software at European non-software companies gets grouped in with IT. Treated as a support team rather than a revenue team, with salaries to match.
Re:Volkswagen invests up to $5B in Rivian by constantcrying on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @09:58AM (#40800141)
But this can't be true for VW, which set up an entire company to do software for cars, which has nothing to do with providing IT or was ever viewed as a "support team".
Re:Volkswagen invests up to $5B in Rivian by k8sToGo on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @04:44AM (#40797780)
One of the reasons they replaced the CEO, thankfully.