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Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by ExoticPearTree on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @04:00AM (#40797449)
In the US things are very different than what you're used to in Europe, which I assume you are since you're talking about this and debit.

3D Secure and other technologies are pretty inexistent because people pay with credit cards and not debit cards. Credit cards have a very simple process of disputing transactions, fraud insurance and other things, and by moving the risk to the bank/merchant, they eliminate the friction that comes with using 3D Secure and other multi-factor authentication solutions. Win for the customer.

Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by barrkel on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @04:17AM (#40797571)
Credit cards generally use multi-factor auth in Europe for unusual transactions, typically an app, sometimes SMS.
Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by oblio on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @04:14AM (#40797549)
I'm fairly sure you can have 3D secure for credit cards.

> 3-D Secure is a protocol designed to be an additional security layer for online credit and debit card transactions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3-D_Secure

Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by ExoticPearTree on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @04:40AM (#40797750)
But it is a burden on the customer to use it. And in the US at least, you want to let people pay you as easy as possible, not have them jump through hoops like it is in the EU with a second factor authentication. Different approaches.
Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by lxgr on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @08:06AM (#40799010)
Having to dispute transactions or beg my bank to please let through a given payment, yes it’s really me (because they only have antiquated and often very insecure ways of establishing my identity) isn’t thrilling either.

3DS on every transaction is definitely frustrating; 3DS on no transaction just shifts the friction elsewhere.

Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by oblio on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @06:32AM (#40798410)
You've moved the goal posts, I saw your other replies in the subthreads.
Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by CaptainZapp on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @12:30PM (#40801754)
Burden? Not really.

I get a popup on my phone via the issuers app

  CONFIRM DENY
And after clicking CONFIRM the transaction goes through. Adds maybe 3 seconds to the process.

This is online only. On site payments of ca. 100$ or less are tap and done. For higher value transactions a PIN is required.

Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by rat9988 on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @04:01AM (#40797459)
I'd rather not have to dispute it and use 3d secure.
Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by ExoticPearTree on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @04:28AM (#40797642)
Here's the rub: if you use a debit card, the burden of proof is on you to prove you did not make the transaction. With credit cards, you shift it to the merchant/bank.
Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by franga2000 on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @06:14AM (#40798322)
Firstly, that's just conceptually stupid, but ok, whatever, it's the US.

More practically: this is still a dispute process. You still have to fill in forms, you still temporarily don't have your money, you still might not get it back. Why take that risk when you could just have a popup on your phone that you click "allow" on? 15 seconds max.

Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by ExoticPearTree on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @09:02AM (#40799545)
You don't fill out forms or what you imagine. And because it is a credit card, you don't lose your money.

Regarding your last question, about the 15 seconds friction, you should work for a bit in online commerce to see how fast people give up paying if there's even a little inconvenience in the checkout process and go somewhere else they perceive it makes their shopping experience easier. The biggest drop in conversion rates happens at the checkout stage.

Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by franga2000 on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @02:20PM (#40802861)
Where else would they go? The 3DS process depends on your issuer, not the merchant, so the process is the same no matter where you shop.
Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by lxgr on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @08:30AM (#40799224)
That’s a common myth, but is simply not true; neither practically, nor legally.

Both chargebacks and zero liability are practically available on effectively all US debit cards.

Legal protections might be a bit less than for credit cards, but still far from “you have the burden of proof”.

Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by stvltvs on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @12:27PM (#40801718)
But your money is held in limbo until the dispute is resolved, right?
Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by lxgr on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @06:15PM (#40805192)
I believe only until the bank does some initial plausibility checks at first.

Actual dispute resolution can take quite long and you’re not even directly dependent on the outcome. For example, if you lose a card and it gets used in a physical store fraudulently, your bank will most likely not be able to win a dispute, but they’ll usually still have to reimburse you.

The thing that matters to you as the cardholder is only fraud liability; if and how your bank is made whole by the merchant is their concern. That’s the same across credit and debit.

Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by dagw on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @04:22AM (#40797592)
3D Secure and other technologies are pretty inexistent because people pay with credit cards and not debit cards.

In Europe, 3D Secure (when it is used) is used when you pay with both credit and debit card. From a transactions point of view there is no difference between a credit and debit card.

Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by ExoticPearTree on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @04:33AM (#40797701)
The article referenced is about how the US system works and I was referring to that. And also, in the US it is very important for your wellbeing to have a good credit score and the only way to build that is to use credit cards.

From a technical perspective you are right - it is a transaction, but from a dispute perspective it matters a whole lot, so it is actually more convenient for Americans to use a credit card with no second factor authentication than go through the hassle of being asked for a code or whatever second factor the bank decides to use.

Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by pjc50 on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @04:27AM (#40797640)
I believe EU now mandates some sort of additional factor for card-not-present transactions whether they're credit or debit.

(probably somewhere in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payment_Services_Directive )

Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by CaptainZapp on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @12:32PM (#40801771)
I think you're right.

That's usually handled with an app on your phone and is pretty much frictionless.

Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by konschubert on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @04:29AM (#40797656)
I am aware of this. I’m saying it because it’s one of the few things where I believe the US can learn from Europe, just like Europe can learn from the Us.

This is not a win for the customer, btw, because the credit card fees get baked into the prices.

Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by ExoticPearTree on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @04:37AM (#40797738)
It is a win friction-wise. I am pretty sure Visa/Mastercard have negligible costs when processing a transaction, and that 3% is what I guess they think is the upper boundary of what merchants are willing to pay before there's an incentive for a competitor with lower fees to appear.
Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by konschubert on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @04:56AM (#40797857)
Visa/Mastercard are a duopoly, which means they can extract rents.

Yes, I’m willing to pay $100 for a liter of water if you’re the only one selling it. I get a lot of value out of it!

In a competitive market, competition eventually drives down prices to a price that somewhat approaches the cost of providing the service.

This isn’t happening in payment, due to insurmountable network effects.

Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by franga2000 on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @06:11AM (#40798310)
I fail to see how "there is no security, but once your money does get stolen your bank might give it back" is a win for the consumer. 3DS usually means clicking yes on a popup on your phone or at worst typing a 6-digit code you got via SMS. It adds maybe 15 seconds to your payment, which when totalled over a year of payments doesn't even get close to having to call or go to your bank and deal with chargebacks and/or insurance.
Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by stvltvs on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @12:25PM (#40801697)
With credit cards, it's the bank's money which is one reason Americans overwhelmingly use them over debit cards.
Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by lxgr on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @08:03AM (#40798980)
And a big win for fraudsters. Who do you think ends up paying for the fraud in the end?
Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by ExoticPearTree on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @09:03AM (#40799568)
Merchants/banks pay for it. It sucks, but with good tools you can lower it significantly, so that its a nuisance.
Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by lxgr on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @09:09AM (#40799628)
And who pays the merchants and banks?