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Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by konschubert on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @03:52AM (#40797408)
Online, you require a second factor and in person, you require a pin or a fingerprint or Face ID.

This, plus reasonable limit that require special checks to be lifted, brings cost of fraud to almost 0.

Oh, and there is no credit risk, you just check the account balance, and only process the payment after blocking the amount on the account. No credit risk.

Completely insane to take 3% for that.

Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by ExoticPearTree on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @04:00AM (#40797449)
In the US things are very different than what you're used to in Europe, which I assume you are since you're talking about this and debit.

3D Secure and other technologies are pretty inexistent because people pay with credit cards and not debit cards. Credit cards have a very simple process of disputing transactions, fraud insurance and other things, and by moving the risk to the bank/merchant, they eliminate the friction that comes with using 3D Secure and other multi-factor authentication solutions. Win for the customer.

Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by barrkel on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @04:17AM (#40797571)
Credit cards generally use multi-factor auth in Europe for unusual transactions, typically an app, sometimes SMS.
Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by oblio on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @04:14AM (#40797549)
I'm fairly sure you can have 3D secure for credit cards.

> 3-D Secure is a protocol designed to be an additional security layer for online credit and debit card transactions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3-D_Secure

Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by ExoticPearTree on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @04:40AM (#40797750)
But it is a burden on the customer to use it. And in the US at least, you want to let people pay you as easy as possible, not have them jump through hoops like it is in the EU with a second factor authentication. Different approaches.
Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by lxgr on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @08:06AM (#40799010)
Having to dispute transactions or beg my bank to please let through a given payment, yes it’s really me (because they only have antiquated and often very insecure ways of establishing my identity) isn’t thrilling either.

3DS on every transaction is definitely frustrating; 3DS on no transaction just shifts the friction elsewhere.

Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by oblio on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @06:32AM (#40798410)
You've moved the goal posts, I saw your other replies in the subthreads.
Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by CaptainZapp on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @12:30PM (#40801754)
Burden? Not really.

I get a popup on my phone via the issuers app

  CONFIRM DENY
And after clicking CONFIRM the transaction goes through. Adds maybe 3 seconds to the process.

This is online only. On site payments of ca. 100$ or less are tap and done. For higher value transactions a PIN is required.

Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by rat9988 on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @04:01AM (#40797459)
I'd rather not have to dispute it and use 3d secure.
Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by ExoticPearTree on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @04:28AM (#40797642)
Here's the rub: if you use a debit card, the burden of proof is on you to prove you did not make the transaction. With credit cards, you shift it to the merchant/bank.
Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by franga2000 on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @06:14AM (#40798322)
Firstly, that's just conceptually stupid, but ok, whatever, it's the US.

More practically: this is still a dispute process. You still have to fill in forms, you still temporarily don't have your money, you still might not get it back. Why take that risk when you could just have a popup on your phone that you click "allow" on? 15 seconds max.

Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by ExoticPearTree on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @09:02AM (#40799545)
You don't fill out forms or what you imagine. And because it is a credit card, you don't lose your money.

Regarding your last question, about the 15 seconds friction, you should work for a bit in online commerce to see how fast people give up paying if there's even a little inconvenience in the checkout process and go somewhere else they perceive it makes their shopping experience easier. The biggest drop in conversion rates happens at the checkout stage.

Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by franga2000 on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @02:20PM (#40802861)
Where else would they go? The 3DS process depends on your issuer, not the merchant, so the process is the same no matter where you shop.
Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by lxgr on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @08:30AM (#40799224)
That’s a common myth, but is simply not true; neither practically, nor legally.

Both chargebacks and zero liability are practically available on effectively all US debit cards.

Legal protections might be a bit less than for credit cards, but still far from “you have the burden of proof”.

Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by stvltvs on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @12:27PM (#40801718)
But your money is held in limbo until the dispute is resolved, right?
Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by lxgr on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @06:15PM (#40805192)
I believe only until the bank does some initial plausibility checks at first.

Actual dispute resolution can take quite long and you’re not even directly dependent on the outcome. For example, if you lose a card and it gets used in a physical store fraudulently, your bank will most likely not be able to win a dispute, but they’ll usually still have to reimburse you.

The thing that matters to you as the cardholder is only fraud liability; if and how your bank is made whole by the merchant is their concern. That’s the same across credit and debit.

Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by dagw on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @04:22AM (#40797592)
3D Secure and other technologies are pretty inexistent because people pay with credit cards and not debit cards.

In Europe, 3D Secure (when it is used) is used when you pay with both credit and debit card. From a transactions point of view there is no difference between a credit and debit card.

Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by ExoticPearTree on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @04:33AM (#40797701)
The article referenced is about how the US system works and I was referring to that. And also, in the US it is very important for your wellbeing to have a good credit score and the only way to build that is to use credit cards.

From a technical perspective you are right - it is a transaction, but from a dispute perspective it matters a whole lot, so it is actually more convenient for Americans to use a credit card with no second factor authentication than go through the hassle of being asked for a code or whatever second factor the bank decides to use.

Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by pjc50 on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @04:27AM (#40797640)
I believe EU now mandates some sort of additional factor for card-not-present transactions whether they're credit or debit.

(probably somewhere in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payment_Services_Directive )

Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by CaptainZapp on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @12:32PM (#40801771)
I think you're right.

That's usually handled with an app on your phone and is pretty much frictionless.

Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by konschubert on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @04:29AM (#40797656)
I am aware of this. I’m saying it because it’s one of the few things where I believe the US can learn from Europe, just like Europe can learn from the Us.

This is not a win for the customer, btw, because the credit card fees get baked into the prices.

Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by ExoticPearTree on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @04:37AM (#40797738)
It is a win friction-wise. I am pretty sure Visa/Mastercard have negligible costs when processing a transaction, and that 3% is what I guess they think is the upper boundary of what merchants are willing to pay before there's an incentive for a competitor with lower fees to appear.
Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by konschubert on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @04:56AM (#40797857)
Visa/Mastercard are a duopoly, which means they can extract rents.

Yes, I’m willing to pay $100 for a liter of water if you’re the only one selling it. I get a lot of value out of it!

In a competitive market, competition eventually drives down prices to a price that somewhat approaches the cost of providing the service.

This isn’t happening in payment, due to insurmountable network effects.

Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by franga2000 on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @06:11AM (#40798310)
I fail to see how "there is no security, but once your money does get stolen your bank might give it back" is a win for the consumer. 3DS usually means clicking yes on a popup on your phone or at worst typing a 6-digit code you got via SMS. It adds maybe 15 seconds to your payment, which when totalled over a year of payments doesn't even get close to having to call or go to your bank and deal with chargebacks and/or insurance.
Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by stvltvs on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @12:25PM (#40801697)
With credit cards, it's the bank's money which is one reason Americans overwhelmingly use them over debit cards.
Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by lxgr on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @08:03AM (#40798980)
And a big win for fraudsters. Who do you think ends up paying for the fraud in the end?
Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by ExoticPearTree on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @09:03AM (#40799568)
Merchants/banks pay for it. It sucks, but with good tools you can lower it significantly, so that its a nuisance.
Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by lxgr on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @09:09AM (#40799628)
And who pays the merchants and banks?
Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by AmericanChopper on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @04:29AM (#40797653)
The card companies and associated infrastructure providers have created a system that connects basically every bank in the world to basically every other bank in the world, and to any merchant in the world who wants to participate. Imagine how difficult it is to complete one big enterprise integration like that, especially one that involves systems like core banking. Now do that thousands of times over, across hundreds of countries, integrating with millions of merchants, processing tens of thousands of transactions per second, and almost never going down.

The payment card system is a miracle of system design and global commerce. I also want to see processing costs come down over time, but 3% is a bargain for the value you’re getting, and if you wanted to stifle any further innovation out of the industry, then regulating the profit out of it would be a good start.

Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by lxgr on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @08:09AM (#40799029)
It is a miracle (both in that it exists and in that it actually still works :), but it does not cost 3% to run.

Much of that goes back to cardholders in the form of cash backs. That is evidently friction not necessary to run the system.

Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by AmericanChopper on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @09:25AM (#40799776)
The amount it costs to run is irrelevant. The marginal cost of adding one user to a SaaS product is incredibly low, the marginal cost of allowing somebody to install your software product is almost $0, but I think we all understand that those factors aren’t what drives the pricing of the products.
Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by lxgr on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @11:01AM (#40800846)
But here we do understand more than with the typical SaaS product provided by a single supplier:

The 3.5% get split among issuer (how much they get is public information), network, and acquirer. We also know how much issuers roughly pay out to cardholders as cashback/rewards.

The EU took that information and acted on it by outright capping the issuer portion (i.e. the interchange).

One half of the US approach for debit was similar – Durbin capped debit interchange to an extremely low percentage – but the proposals from this (now rejected) settlement look different and more market-based in that they'd allow merchants to effectively collect back the cardholder cashback in surcharges.

Durbin also has a less-known component of trying to create competition between networks by mandating debit cards to have two independent networks. Extending this to credit cards could possibly help drive down actual network fees, but this has arguably not even worked that well for debit. Also, as many people have mentioned before, the interchange slice of the swipe fee cake is by far the largest and would probably make more sense to tackle first.

Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by AmericanChopper on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @11:25AM (#40801122)
That’s not my point, my point is that the cost of goods (which is itself only one factor that influences pricing) is not exclusively determined by the cost of operating the network. Implementing the kind of payment network that the cards brands have is incredibly costly upfront, which requires developing all the IP, implementing all the systems, and establishing business relationships with millions and millions of parties to get the network in place. Now that they’ve committed to all that upfront cost, where does the moral authority to impose price controls on them come from? It costs Adobe close to $0 to allow me to install creative suite, so why should the price to me not also be close to $0?

The outcome of this sort of regulation is that nobody wants to invest in establishing or innovating large networks like this. Which is why all the recent innovation in payments has been centred around terrible, highly fragmented, in-app payments and EMIs, and that’s certainly not a win for consumers.

Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by lxgr on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @11:37AM (#40801249)
Oh, that's all things I'd roll into "costs of operating the network". Maybe my usage of network is slightly confusing here; I usually mean it to include the "scheme" and "brand" parts too.

That's certainly much more than just the cost of running the technical network, but also, as we can see from the above calculation, clearly one of the smaller components of the 3.5% (since the lion's share goes to the issuers).

In that sense, the networks really do compete – for the issuers' business! Issuers then compete with each other for cardholders by paying out cashbacks, but what many find missing is competition with these dynamics as a whole.

Making that cost explicit in the form of credit card surcharges might have been a path there (I'm not sure if I'd have been a fan myself), but since this settlement is now off the table, let's see what the next move is.

Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by konschubert on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @04:33AM (#40797694)
So is email, yet email is free
Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by AmericanChopper on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @04:43AM (#40797769)
Putting aside the fact that email is not free, if you think the complexity of a system that sends an email is comparable to the complexity of a system that processes real time payments, then you're kinda showing how little you understand payment systems (but I suspect this was just a flippant comment). Email doesn't require a globally consistent state to be maintained, it doesn't require cross-border settlement, there is no financial liability if an email is lost, it doesn't require a different set of KYC/AML/reporting regulations to be followed in every jurisdiction, or many other things that payment systems do.
Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by konschubert on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @04:52AM (#40797841)
You say all this.

And yet, fees are 0.3% in Europe, and VISA, Mastercard and Amex are still happy to do business here. And customers can STILL pay with a single FaceID with Apple Pay.

So maybe all 0.3% of trillions of Euros moved is still enough to do all this.

Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by SXX on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @07:42AM (#40798821)
I think AMEX able to have higher fee because they're underdog in that market. For the same reason a lot of places in EU / UK dont like to take AMEX.
Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by AmericanChopper on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @09:18AM (#40799703)
Amex get away with it because their customer base is a niche of higher income earners. Merchants would rather not accept Amex, but a lot of them want to attract that demographic as their customers. So they each make their own decision about how to balance those concerns.
Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by AmericanChopper on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @05:14AM (#40797993)
Of course, the value of the system is that it's a global payment network. If the card brands started cutting out over regulated markets then the system would decrease in value for customers in it's main profit centres. The outcome is just that the rest of the world ends up subsiding European payment networks. The negative impact of policies like this isn't that the payment networks will start exiting markets, it's that they just won't innovate. Which is why most of the innovation in the payment industry recently has been in EMIs and in-app payment systems, which are both more expensive and worse for consumers.

But all of this is secondary to the point, which is your claim that a 3% processing fee is insane. The way the system works is insane, if you said today that you wanted to build the type of system that the card bands have built, nobody would believe that it would be possible. Especially not all for a 3% processing fee. If the payment networks didn't exist, everything you buy would be a lot more than 3% more expensive, and your quality of life would be very notably reduced. The value you're getting from them is a lot more than what you're paying to use them.

Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by lxgr on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @08:33AM (#40799257)
That’s largely because the widely-reported 0.3% are the issuer’s takeaway, while the 3.5% are the (average? maximum?) cost to the merchant, so it’s not even an apples to apples comparison.

Out of the latter, three parties are paid: The issuer, the merchant acquirer, and the network.

Merchants pay significantly more than 0.3% to accept card payments even in Europe.

That said, US interchange rates (i.e. what the issuer gets) are much higher than 0.3%, which is why there’s credit card rewards.

Re:Visa, Mastercard $30B swipe fee settlement rejected by US... by akira2501 on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @04:37AM (#40797737)
Charge backs. Price matching. Product insurance. Consumer credit scores can go down, which reduces the maximum balance, which may be under the current balance, which may become a total loss of the account. There are plenty of risks for an _issuer_. Which are separate entities from the _network_.