News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by darkteflon on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @07:13AM (#40787000)
I made the switch. It’s fantastic. Pop with the pre-packaged Nvidia drivers.

Other than Warzone and Tarkov (for which I keep a separate drive with Win10), the only things I haven’t quite managed to get sorted yet are (i) a convenient system-wide replacement for the frame limiter in RTSS, and (ii) relatedly, proper frame-pacing when streaming using Sunshine.

Also, Steam seems to have a weird and widespread bug where if you use Big Screen, exit to the desktop mode, then launch BS again, you get like 5fps in the BS front-end itself (after launching a game, it’s fine). The workaround is to just kill the client when you exit Big Screen (usually when your gaming is done anyway).

Really happy I made the switch and fully expect those niggles to get sorted (or my aptitude to improve) in due course. Windows has been shit for a while but recently it’s really crossed over into unbelievably shit.

Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by KronisLV on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @07:34AM (#40787182)
> a convenient system-wide replacement for the frame limiter in RTSS

My budget gaming PC is still on Windows and RTSS is a lifesaver: I couldn't stream or record some games with my Intel Arc A580 otherwise, since titles that use DX11 or older rendering technologies typically have worse performance than the more recent ones, ergo I have to stream/record at 30 and cap the framerate anywhere between 30-60 depending on the title, otherwise things get unstable.

Of course, it's not ideal, but is at least workable. A bit odd that the card struggles with games like Ghost Recon Wildlands (DX11, 2017), but not Ghost Recon Breakpoint (Vulkan, 2019) or ones that use DX12 etc. Either that, or when there's a title that's badly coded and doesn't lock framerate properly to the screen refresh rate.

Aside from that, around 90% of the 500ish Steam games I have would actually run on Linux (various indie titles, mostly), at least according to ProtonDB: https://www.protondb.com which is pretty nice to see, except for the fact that last I checked something like GOG doesn't run on Linux natively, though thankfully something like Lutris exists.

Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by Gormo on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @07:44AM (#40787270)
> that last I checked something like GOG doesn't run on Linux natively

GOG absolutely does offer native Linux games.

Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by KronisLV on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @07:55AM (#40787381)
Their own launcher doesn’t seem to have a Linux version, only Windows and Mac: https://www.gog.com/galaxy

That’s why people seem to recommend Lutris or some other alternatives to access the actual library.

Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by ekianjo on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @08:08AM (#40787492)
you have FOSS minigalaxy client as well as HeroicLauncher that support GOG too.
Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by lupusreal on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @12:09PM (#40790286)
They have a launcher?? I've been buying games from them for years and didn't know that..
Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by Gormo on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @07:07PM (#40794729)
Different strokes, I guess. One of the main draws of buying games from GOG instead of Steam, for me, is the fact that I don't need an extra bit of superfluous software just to purchase and launch my games. I have a perfectly good application launcher already, which relies on standard .desktop files.
Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by Forbo on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @09:32PM (#40795583)
I recently started using the Heroic launcher for my GOG library and so far it's been working great.

https://heroicgameslauncher.com/

Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by darkteflon on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @07:50AM (#40787339)
Yeah it’s so good isn’t it. Just painless and seamless. Some people seem to use the limiter in NVCP as an alternative, but that option isn’t exposed in the Pop Nvidia control panel, which is pretty basic.

I’ve had a really mixed experience with GoG on Lutris and Heroic - both on Pop and the Steam Deck. I often struggle to get things running. It requires just that little bit more knowledge of what’s happening under the hood than Steam/Proton does, and I often just give up. My library is mostly in Steam anyway. Honestly, EmuDeck has been easier for me to get uo and running than either Heroic or Lutris.

Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by jorvi on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @08:35AM (#40787785)
Yeah, I think I’d describe it as “workable” too. Occasionally you will have a game that’s rated “platinum” still have bugs like a non-working controller.

And both Nvidia and AMD have native control software (GeForce Experience and Adrenalin) that bundles a bunch of nice stuff like underclocking, recording, noise suppression, per-game profiles, frame limiter, etc;

On Linux you have GreenWithEnvy and CoreCTRL, but neither are as nice or have even half the features.

Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by bee_rider on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @09:54AM (#40788661)
I’ve never had a good experience with Steam Bigscreen, Linux or Windows. Even on my TV pc I just use the old client.

Every time I’ve tried it, it has just seemed slow, even on reasonably powerful PCs.

Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by kyriakos on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @07:45AM (#40787284)
I recently bought a Lenovo Legion with RTX4070 I still haven't managed to get Nvidia it working under Linux (the moment I open a browser or anything that uses the GPU extensively things go bad)

Disclaimer I am not very familiar with Linux for Desktop - but to me this is an indication that we are not yet in the "just works" state for desktop linux.

Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by darkteflon on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @08:00AM (#40787416)
Yeah choice of distro and your particular hardware combo are still a factor, unfortunately. Not super difficult to boot it up and have a poke around though, see if it sticks. Maybe try another distro?
Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by kyriakos on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @08:03AM (#40787448)
I tried Ubuntu and then Pop_OS which seemed more promising but ended up not working either. I'm open to any other suggestions, prefer Debian based distros which I have more experience with from server side.
Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by darkteflon on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @08:36AM (#40787797)
Yeah I came from an Ubuntu background too. Mint, perhaps? Honestly though if I were going to try anything else at this point it would be Fedora I think. So many good reports. But I’m far from knowledgeable on this stuff - I’m sure others will have better answers, or advice on how to debug your current install.
Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by alje on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @08:39AM (#40787830)
Pop!_OS should definitely work. Just check the NVIDIA drivers, that you are on 550 version
Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by 9Ljdg6p8ZSzejt on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @08:22AM (#40787648)
I would open another TTY to run the nvidia-bug-report.sh when you experience the GPU intensive issues. I recently had a very minute hard to spot problem on why I couldn't get my GPU working and the Generix on the Nvidia Forums help me (and so many others) solve their issues almost immediately. Could be worth a shot.
Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by logicprog on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @09:11AM (#40788156)
It's really strange that it didn't work for you, especially with pop OS which really should just work. I think we're in this strange sort of limbo where for like 80% of people it just works, and then there's 20% of people where it simply breaks in bizarre completely unpredictable and incomprehensible ways that aren't even reproducible for anyone else. That's better than it not just working for anyone I guess, but it's still not ideal and honestly I'd be interested to hear a discussion about why this is.
Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by gaius_baltar on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @01:16PM (#40791014)
> Disclaimer I am not very familiar with Linux for Desktop - but to me this is an indication that we are not yet in the "just works" state for desktop linux.

Or it does just mean that while the Windows recurrent problems (how to create local accounts, disable telemetry, install 3rd party programs, etc.) are just seen as life as normal while Linux problems are seen as such.

Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by kyriakos on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @03:22PM (#40792497)
The fact that the laptop is unusable under Linux feels more important, at least to me, than enforced Microsoft account login which is just an inconvenience. Of course your priorities may be different.
Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by juandemarco on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @07:29AM (#40787132)
MangoHUD should solve your frame limiting needs, and you can even set multiple limits and switch between them!
Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by darkteflon on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @07:37AM (#40787205)
Yes I use MangoHUD and it’s pretty good! It’s not quite as seamless as RTSS, though. MH is a bit fussy about which graphics API you’re using, and can’t be applied system-wide (afaik) without going through that 3rd party (open-source) UI. Plus, even when it’s applied and working, it doesn’t seem to solve my Sunshine frame-pacing issues, which for me is the main use case (the physically attached monitor is VRR so I don’t need limiting locally). Great project though!

I think I’m also a bit spoiled by the Steam Deck, where it’s so easy to set and change custom limits. I kind of just want that, for Pop, ha.

Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by juandemarco on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @07:48AM (#40787318)
I've applied it system wide by setting `MANGOHUD=1` inside `/etc/environment`, which might be a little bit excessive but it works for me. You can also set hotkeys to toggle the Hud and the frame rate limits within ~/.config/MangoHud/MangoHud.conf, but I think there is a GUI tool that does it for you.

As for the frame pacing, try with the beta NVidia drivers (v555) and Wayland, though I don't use Sunshine so I'm not sure if it'll help.

Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by darkteflon on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @07:57AM (#40787394)
Thanks for the tips! I’ve had one eye on Wayland, but with all the reports of trouble with Nvidia, and the upcoming (imminent?) transition to Cosmic for Pop, I figured I’d hold off - especially since I’m streaming less than I used to and playing more 90hz indies on the Steam Deck OLED.
Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by juandemarco on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @08:18AM (#40787593)
The latest driver makes Wayland usable on NVidia, as long as you use an up to date shell and the latest xwayland version, I've been using it since it came out and it's been great, games are much more smooth and the constant microstutter I'd been having with X is gone.

Check out if these updates are all available on Pop, if they are give them a try!

Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by darkteflon on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @08:33AM (#40787767)
That’s excellent - thanks! I will check that out this weekend for sure. I might even spend some time getting to the bottom of when and how Cosmic is going to be rolled out, and whether it matters if you’re coming from X or Wayland. If it looks like it’s going to be pretty seamless, I’ll give Wayland a try in the interim too!
Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by Zambyte on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @08:46AM (#40787920)
Huh, I didn't even realize MangoHUD can do frame limiting. I've always just used gamescope[0] for that. The latter is probably overkill if all you want to do is limit framerate though.

[0] https://github.com/ValveSoftware/gamescope

Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by juandemarco on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @12:48PM (#40790720)
Gamescope is great but the fact that you can set multiple limits and switch between them makes me prefer MangoHUD, even though I also sometimes use gamescope (with Nvidia my experience with it has been a little bit hit or miss).

This is what I have in my MangoHud.conf:

fps_limit_method=late

toggle_fps_limit=Shift_R+slash

show_fps_limit

fps_limit=0,45,60,90,120,240

Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by Macha on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @07:39AM (#40787230)
Similarly, my Windows 10 install on my primary PC is basically a Destiny 2 launcher at this point
Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by w8vY7ER on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @08:40AM (#40787840)
sounds awesome, honestly. maybe consider retiring “niggle” from the lexicon
Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by CalRobert on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @08:54AM (#40787990)
If anyone else was curious

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/niggle

""" Etymology

First attested in 1599. Origin uncertain, but likely borrowed from dialectal Norwegian nigla (“to be stingy, to busy oneself with trifles”), ultimately from Old Norse hnøggr (“stingy; miserly”), related to Old English hnēaw (“stingy; niggardly”). More at niggard. """

Niggard is unrelated to the racial slur we're thinking of but in fairness I can understand how it would raise eyebrows.

Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by dahart on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @10:15AM (#40788939)
> Niggard is unrelated to the racial slur we’re thinking of but in fairness I can understand how it would raise eyebrows.

Would it be fair to say that a history of raising eyebrows establishes some relationship between otherwise previously unrelated words?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_about_the_word_n...

Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by ctoth on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @08:59AM (#40788028)
I was also curious. If you really wanna go down the rabbit hole:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1557349

History certainly loves to rhyme.

Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by CyberDildonics on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @04:01PM (#40792939)
Start saying it at work every day and when you get fired, you can tell them "but it was first attested in 1599!"
Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by mhb on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @09:20AM (#40788278)
Don't stop there. Any word starting with an "n" can be eliminated.
Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by consf on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @09:58AM (#40788720)
So this sentence would not be able to exist... "Nice neighbors nurture nature, noting notable nuances nightly".
Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by mhb on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @03:00PM (#40792214)
Of course it would. And it could be shortened to 4 x n-word, 4 x n-word.
Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by consf on Sunday July 07, 2024 @01:42PM (#40899121)
That would be funny
Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by sigzero on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @09:49AM (#40788609)
There is nothing wrong with that word. Seriously.
Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by dahart on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @10:43AM (#40789276)
That is what I assumed at first, but reading the thread @ctoth linked to and the Wikipedia article with many examples, changed my mind. It’s a good reminder that history has often come to a different conclusion than logic.
Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by mhb on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @02:50PM (#40792068)
Maybe you can also consider where this sort of thinking might lead:

When the news began circulating on social media, many couldn’t believe it was true––that the Marshall School of Business at the University of Southern California would remove a longtime professor from a class because a Mandarin word he used correctly in a lesson sounded sort of like a racial slur.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/09/fight-agai...

Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by dahart on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @04:31PM (#40793242)
There was nearly unanimous agreement that the students crying wolf in that case were sincere but wrong and prof Patton was justified. After investigation, he was cleared. The article’s word “removed” is ambiguous, but Patton was not fired or even suspended, they just used a sub for a couple weeks. He was sorry it happened, but was not punished.

The USC story is quite different from the current thread. The historical use of the word “niggard” has been intentionally used in a racist way (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_about_the_word...), and if you read the WP article, it has quotes speculating that subtle “sophomoric” usage of the word might increase for racial reasons.

So I don’t buy the slippery slope argument, and it seems like the USC story is actually demonstrating that people can be reasonable about where the line is. It might have caused a stir once, but now there is precedent for settling cases of Mandarin confusion more quickly.

Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by mhb on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @05:50PM (#40794077)
That's great that sanity eventually prevailed, but it's not a compelling example of reasonableness that it was only after "Patton was removed from the class, investigated, and excoriated in a mass email." Now that we have set this important precedent that someone teaching Mandarin in a way that "confused" his students (who are learning Mandarin?) into thinking he was insulting black people, are there any other languages about which we should be concerned?

It's hyperbole to call this a slippery slope when the exact same thinking that finds niggardly offensive leads to the absurd outcome at USC. Instead of pruning the language of any words that a racist might use as a dog whistle, maybe expect, if not everyone, at least college students to have some notion of context.

Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by dahart on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @08:09PM (#40795138)
Oh, sorry, how would you summarize your argument? I thought “consider where this sort of thinking might lead” was called slippery slope, but I’m happy to refer to it some other way.

> it’s not a compelling example of reasonableness

Why not? The outcome was positive, Patton suffered no serious consequences, and the ability to say foreign words without worrying was affirmed publicly. It could have been much worse, but it wasn’t. There was a temporary misunderstanding followed by some conversation that got it sorted out, no need to worry about that further. Again, the precedent that was set is that using Mandarin is not insensitive or racist. Precedent refers to the outcome, not the temporary misunderstanding. The outcome at USC was not absurd, the outcome was reasonable. The accusation might have been out of line, or just a mistake, but that was the cause, not the outcome.

> are there any other languages about which we should be concerned?

Why would there be? (…especially given the outcome of the USC story) If you read the USC response, you’ll even find it addresses that question directly. It affirms that incidental phonetic similarities across all different languages are pure coincidence and should not result in claims of wrongdoing. It even says the same thing you did, and takes responsibility too, it says college students should have some notion of global context, and it’s college’s job to give them that context.

The case that started this thread is not a cross-language mistake, and didn’t come with evidence of historically racist usage, so it’s different by definition. It’s not the exact same thinking, and I posted some evidence of that. There’s no reason to believe the Mandarin incident will lead to more accusations, and due to being publicized and decided in Patton’s favor, there is reason to believe it won’t happen again.

Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by mhb on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @09:48PM (#40795641)
We can call it a slippery slope, if you like, but that generally suggests an imagined, often absurd end result. Not a demonstrated consequence of the exact facts causing a bad outcome.

I think it is easier, in hindsight, for you to say that Patton didn't suffer serious consequences. If I were in his shoes, being prohibited from teaching his class, disciplined for an absurd accusation and investigated, I would be pretty upset and wondering what the outcome would be.

If these were second graders learning a foreign language, maybe it is understandable that they might titter about a word in that language that is similar to one in English. I think it takes quite a bit of mental contortion to believe that students in a college foreign language class would think that a Mandarin word was insulting to black people because it sounds like an English word.

The reason this story is publicized is not because it's the valuable precedent you assert. It's that it is symptomatic of the ridicule deserved by the reasoning that people should be offended by words with similar sounds and different meanings.

Maybe it would be clearer if you read the whole thing: https://web.archive.org/web/20200922014834/https://www.theat...

Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by dahart on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @12:45AM (#40796461)
So your argument is that we should ignore the actual positive “sanity prevailed” outcome, and instead only focus on imagining what it felt like to be incorrectly accused of racism, before being cleared? I’m sure that totally sucked for a minute, which is why he apologized, though he did have a pretty massive wave of support, both locally and nationally, before the investigation finished. Anyway… why does ignoring the outcome make any sense now?

I did read the whole article (btw please re-read HN guidelines), which was designed to stir and highlight drama, as newspapers are wont to do. You’re right, the Atlantic story you’re linking to is downplaying the precedent and focusing on the controversy. Even though there’s not that much controversy.

I also read some followup too, obviously, since I wrote some details above about the story that your source doesn’t mention, for example that Patton was not disciplined and was cleared and apologized to, and that the dean who “excoriated” Patten also had to publicly apologize for his hasty & presumptuous email, and admitted he reacted too quickly.

You seem to be insisting on incredulity and outrage, when feelings got out of hand but nothing serious actually happened. That’s kinda the same mistake Patton’s students made.

The school is required to take accusations seriously and investigate. That’s not a bad thing, it’s a good thing. The dean handled it poorly at first, but people sometimes make mistakes. And it’s also good thing prof Patton was cleared. Almost everything worked like it should have. It doesn’t matter what you or anyone thinks about the validity of the student’s accusation, and the fact that the accusation happened is not somehow going to make anything worse.

Hey, it’s a free country, say whatever words you want, as far as I’m concerned, the consequences are yours to enjoy. You’re right that this shouldn’t have happened, and you’re right that the words we’re discussing did not originate from a racial epithet. But then history happened, replete with a lot of actual racism and words, and in reality new negative associations were formed between unrelated words. Bummer. But complaining about not being able to use one totally anachronistic word now that clearly sounds like a racial slur, and has been used as a racial slur, might seem a bit tone deaf. Arguing that choosing not to say one particular word is going to lead to many more and cause problems is an imagined and absurd end result.

Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by mhb on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @09:49AM (#40800026)
> please re-read HN guidelines

OK. "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize."

Which is not what you're doing when you reduce the question to saying one particular word is the issue rather than only an example of blindly ignoring context. (Which is not even the case here since we're now offended by niggle, niggardly, niggard and 那个 and who knows what else). The issue is making the language less expressive at the instigation of 1) people who can't understand context and 2) sophomoric racists who take advantage of the people who can't understand context. Neither group should be rewarded by ceding the use of completely harmless and expressive words.

Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by dahart on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @11:24AM (#40801112)
> who knows what else […] making the language less expressive

There’s that slippery slope again. English isn’t getting less expressive, that will never happen. That right there is the “imagined, absurd end result”. The number of English words that have become politically incorrect over our lifetimes is completely dwarfed by 1) the better, more expressive synonyms and alternatives available and 2) the number of new words introduced into English over the same period.

I hear you, and I agree that it’s stupid that a couple of previously unrelated words have become tainted, and they shouldn’t have been. But it’s too late, it happened… in this case, over a hundred years ago.

Nobody is being rewarded. Racist word usage doesn’t seek to remove words from our lexicon. The words don’t actually go away, the choice to use or not use certain words is yours to make. Whether we offer other cultures any respect by choosing to avoid any innocuous words that happen to have a higher probability of being taken the wrong way is purely a personal decision. Which is why arguing about it might not be the best look, even if you’re right, right?

Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by mhb on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @02:49PM (#40803205)
When the end result has actually happened (advocacy for the avoidance of sound-alike words), it is no longer a slippery slope.

Anyway, there is value in trying to get people to understand that people who innocently use a sound-alike don't intend to offend them. Which is pretty much what John McWhorter has written about many times. The failure to understand context seems to be a big part of many issues of the day.

Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by dahart on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @06:36PM (#40805367)
The “end result” you just referred to is only for the 3 specific words we’ve been discussing and no others. It actually is a slippery slope argument when you’re talking about any other words and not the 3 specific ones in this thread.

I totally agree there’s value in sharing context, and helping people not be offended. USC agrees as well now. Good!

Re:Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local ... by darkteflon on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @09:02AM (#40788065)
Maybe consider punctuation? You have yourself a great night, mate.