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Re:Greece introduces the six day work week by klysm on Saturday June 22, 2024 @03:58PM (#40761694)
No amount of automation has ever seemed to result in a net reduction in work to do thus far
Re:Greece introduces the six day work week by TomatoCo on Saturday June 22, 2024 @04:17PM (#40761832)
Sounds like a labor version of Jevon's Paradox, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox where increases in efficiency cause a resource to be consumed more, not less.
Re:Greece introduces the six day work week by Imnimo on Saturday June 22, 2024 @04:07PM (#40761755)
Re:Greece introduces the six day work week by echoangle on Saturday June 22, 2024 @04:14PM (#40761806)
Why would it? It’s not like the amount of work to do is fixed and once it’s done, everyone can relax for the rest of the year. There’s always work to do and progress just speeds up as work becomes more efficient.
Re:Greece introduces the six day work week by MiguelX413 on Saturday June 22, 2024 @04:48PM (#40762079)
Why not just stop once we've done the same work as in the past?
Re:Greece introduces the six day work week by echoangle on Saturday June 22, 2024 @06:17PM (#40762698)
Is there nothing to improve in your life? Was there nothing to improve in the 50s? Would you like supersonic commercial flights for everyone and photorealistic computer games? Electric cars and larger houses? You can also do better and improve the life of everyone. That’s not even considering the improvements impoverished countries around the world have experienced in the recent decades, have a look at Africa.
Re:Greece introduces the six day work week by plsbenice34 on Saturday June 22, 2024 @06:34PM (#40762817)
My desire to work less eclipses any desire for any of those things. I do not believe that lives are being improved. It only benefits the rich that don't have to work because there is no downside for them and they only gain more power through the system
Re:Greece introduces the six day work week by echoangle on Saturday June 22, 2024 @06:43PM (#40762893)
I would rather work full time now than part time in the 50s, I think. I haven’t lived in the 50s though so I can’t say for sure.
Re:Greece introduces the six day work week by coldtea on Saturday June 22, 2024 @06:34PM (#40762823)
>Is there nothing to improve in your life?

Yes: less work primarily.

Re:Greece introduces the six day work week by brewtide on Saturday June 22, 2024 @05:39PM (#40762443)
Shiny new phones every year, bigger better faster shinier cars, Fancier meals, must have gadgets, keeping a keen eye on the Jones's, better fuller lawn without weeds, that paved driveway you've always wanted, a faster computer, better heating systems, brand name clothing...

When needs and wants get all mixed up, there is always more to be done.

Re:Greece introduces the six day work week by red-iron-pine on Sunday June 23, 2024 @08:24AM (#40766916)
just say it man: capitalism creates new needs to justify working you extra hard
Re:Greece introduces the six day work week by xboxnolifes on Monday July 01, 2024 @11:40PM (#40853346)
Because, thus far, people have always wanted more.
Re:Greece introduces the six day work week by jlarocco on Saturday June 22, 2024 @04:47PM (#40762072)
That kind of misrepresents the situation because our social and economic systems screw over the employees whose jobs are automated away.

Initially there's the same amount of work, but if they don't find something else to do, they won't be able to pay their bills or buy food, and they'll be out on the street.

So we end up with crappy, low pay service jobs that only exist so people have some way to scrape out a living.

The business owners benefit from automation, the employees lose.

Re:Greece introduces the six day work week by barbariangrunge on Monday July 01, 2024 @11:48PM (#40853384)
Nobody is hiring armies of workers just so those workers can “scrape out a living.” Companies cut jobs, they rarely create them for charity
Re:Greece introduces the six day work week by imiric on Saturday June 22, 2024 @04:50PM (#40762099)
Because the gains from increased productivity have been reaped by executives, not workers. You keep working the same hours to make your bosses more money, when you could be working less instead. This income gap has been widening since the 1970s[1,2].

[1]: https://www.cbpp.org/research/poverty-and-inequality/a-guide...

[2]: https://www.epi.org/publication/ceo-compensation-2018/

Re:Greece introduces the six day work week by solarkraft on Saturday June 22, 2024 @05:03PM (#40762193)
This is true (and a problem worth debating).

But it would intuitively suggest that the total amount of work to do would reduce. Instead, somehow, we have always found new stuff to do in the past.

Re:Greece introduces the six day work week by asdfasdf1 on Saturday June 22, 2024 @07:51PM (#40763327)
new stuff = worthless meetings, powerpoints, emails & pretending to look busy
Re:Greece introduces the six day work week by readthenotes1 on Saturday June 22, 2024 @11:29PM (#40764541)
I play an MMO and people in Europe regularly tell me that they are playing at their desk or in meetings.

Given the number of people I've seen you spend more time on chat and social media instead of work task I would say that we have found more new ways to not work while getting paid.

Re:Greece introduces the six day work week by Engineering-MD on Sunday June 23, 2024 @06:13AM (#40766228)
Chasing smaller and smaller returns/optimisations because you can, not because you should
Re:Greece introduces the six day work week by marcusverus on Saturday June 22, 2024 @05:11PM (#40762251)
Re:Greece introduces the six day work week by psadauskas on Saturday June 22, 2024 @06:11PM (#40762652)
What do you mean, "nope"? Which part of the previous claims are you refuting?

Your chart shows "real median personal income" increased by ~50% from 1975 to now (27k to 40k).

One of the links you're nope-ing says "From 1978 to 2018, CEO compensation grew by 1,007.5% (940.3% under the options-realized measure), far outstripping S&P stock market growth (706.7%) and the wage growth of very high earners (339.2%)."

Both of these can be true, and median personal income increasing by just 50% when the income of the wealthy increased by far, far more sure sounds a lot like "the gains from increased productivity have been reaped by executives, not workers."

Re:Greece introduces the six day work week by aaomidi on Saturday June 22, 2024 @05:15PM (#40762283)
That number makes absolutely no sense considering how much more basic stuff like housing is now.

Income going up does not actually mean anything without taking into consideration that people are less likely to be able to buy a house now than 50 years ago.

Re:Greece introduces the six day work week by bryanlarsen on Saturday June 22, 2024 @07:20PM (#40763138)
That is an inflation adjusted number
Re:Greece introduces the six day work week by rvense on Saturday June 22, 2024 @08:15PM (#40763457)
But the cost of housing has inflated more than the cost of potatoes.
Re:Greece introduces the six day work week by bryanlarsen on Monday June 24, 2024 @11:45AM (#40777452)
Exactly. If incomes increased at the same rate as housing did, then people would be much richer today than they were back then. It's why inflation uses a basket rather than just cherry picking a single component of the basket. If you want things to look bad you use housing. If you want things to look good you use potatoes. If you try and be fair you use a basket.
Re:Greece introduces the six day work week by aaomidi on Monday June 24, 2024 @06:16PM (#40781596)
Im sorry but a basket is absolutely useless when we’re talking about basic needs like housing.
Re:Greece introduces the six day work week by bryanlarsen on Monday June 24, 2024 @10:34PM (#40783776)
2/3 basic needs (food & clothing) are a lot cheaper than they were 50 years ago, and 1/3 is more expensive.
Re:Greece introduces the six day work week by CapstanRoller on Tuesday July 02, 2024 @12:01AM (#40853443)
That 1/3rd is often the difference between life and death.
Re:Greece introduces the six day work week by throw0101b on Sunday June 23, 2024 @07:46AM (#40766716)
>> No amount of automation has ever seemed to result in a net reduction in work to do thus far

> Because the gains from increased productivity have been reaped by executives, not workers.

Or also people like working, for some value of "like":

> Now it is true that the needs of human beings may seem to be insatiable. But they fall into two classes --those needs which are absolute in the sense that we feel them whatever the situation of our fellow human beings may be, and those which are relative in the sense that we feel them only if their satisfaction lifts us above, makes us feel superior to, our fellows. Needs of the second class, those which satisfy the desire for superiority, may indeed be insatiable; for the higher the general level, the higher still are they. But this is not so true of the absolute needs-a point may soon be reached, much sooner perhaps than we are all of us aware of, when these needs are satisfied in the sense that we prefer to devote our further energies to non-economic purposes.

[…]

> For many ages to come the old Adam will be so strong in us that everybody will need to do some work if he is to be contented. We shall do more things for ourselves than is usual with the rich to-day, only too glad to have small duties and tasks and routines. But beyond this, we shall endeavour to spread the bread thin on the butter-to make what work there is still to be done to be as widely shared as possible. Three-hour shifts or a fifteen-hour week may put off the problem for a great while. For three hours a day is quite enough to satisfy the old Adam in most of us!

* John Maynard Keynes, "Economic Possibilities for our Grandchildren" (1930)

* http://www.econ.yale.edu/smith/econ116a/keynes1.pdf

An essay putting forward / hypothesizing four reasons on why the above did not happen (We haven't spread the wealth around enough; People actually love working; There's no limit to human desires; Leisure is expensive):

* https://www.vox.com/2014/11/20/7254877/keynes-work-leisure

Just any person who retired (many of whom take on part-time jobs, not for primarily for money, but for the social aspects).

(Not to deny that, in a capitalism society, the capitalisms often get the 'excess' value created.)

Re:Greece introduces the six day work week by Aerroon on Monday July 01, 2024 @11:34PM (#40853323)
This cannot be true.

Imagine your job is producing chairs. You make 1 chair per day. Now you get a machine that improves your productivity and you can make 4 chairs per day, but your pay doesn't increase, instead the executives pocket all of it!

But what about the 3 extra chairs? Somebody somewhere gets chairs that wouldn't have got them if you had been producing 1 chair per day.

Wealth is about stuff, not money. If more stuff is produced (that is useful) then people become wealthier. So unless those executives are somehow taking all those extra chairs themselves there must be done other beneficiary from the extra productivity.

It's far more likely that regular people have a growing desire for more stuff than the executives using up all those extra products themselves.

Re:Greece introduces the six day work week by selcuka on Monday July 01, 2024 @11:42PM (#40853352)
> Now you get a machine that improves your productivity and you can make 4 chairs per day, but your pay doesn't increase

You are looking from a single worker's perspective. A more realistic example is 4 workers used to make 4 chairs per day, and now 3 workers can make the same number of chairs. Boss makes more money. No net gain for the remaining 3 workers (and the laid off worker has to find another job, potentially for a lower salary).

Re:Greece introduces the six day work week by Aerroon on Tuesday July 02, 2024 @02:10AM (#40853958)
And the net benefit to society is that now that fourth person has time to do some other beneficial activity for society.
Re:Greece introduces the six day work week by beretguy on Thursday July 04, 2024 @09:01AM (#40874601)
No. Now that fourth person is struggling to pay bills, possibly losses house and becomes homeless. Are you a troll or out of touch with reality?
Re:Greece introduces the six day work week by Dylan16807 on Tuesday July 02, 2024 @12:03AM (#40853448)
I think you're underestimating how many chairs a single person can have. And cars and houses and services. And obviously some businesses will grow or shrink relative to others based on how elastic the demand is. Also it's a bigger range than just the executives.
Re:Greece introduces the six day work week by barbariangrunge on Monday July 01, 2024 @11:40PM (#40853345)
What about advertising?
Re:Greece introduces the six day work week by Aerroon on Thursday July 04, 2024 @04:43AM (#40873379)
I don't think advertising is what creates a desire for a product. I think that desire exists beforehand and advertising mobilizes it.

I didn't know I wanted a smartphone. Ads didn't make me want a smartphone. But when I got a smartphone I knew I wanted one.

Re:Greece introduces the six day work week by imtringued on Tuesday July 02, 2024 @02:12AM (#40853964)
>Somebody somewhere gets chairs that wouldn't have got them if you had been producing 1 chair per day.

I hope you noticed that this somebody is someone else and not you. It could be another executive from another company.

The thing is, people don't care about stuff, because stuff is cheap. They need money to pay for housing and they need only the money, because if people stop consuming and spend more money on housing, the housing gets more expensive even for those who would have otherwise spent their money on consumption. Those people also need more money, not stuff, to spend on housing.

When things get more expensive for no reason, the economy must grow regardless of whether people want to consume more. Most wealth is about the allocation of already existing stuff and transforming it into something convenient. Humans didn't create the oil or iron ore in the soil. They just dug it out. Stuff is never produced, only transformed, so economics will always be about fighting for getting that initial endowment.

Re:Greece introduces the six day work week by imiric on Tuesday July 02, 2024 @04:41AM (#40854708)
Those extra chairs aren't just given away for free for the benefit of humanity. The company sells them, and hence directly profits from the increased productivity. Meanwhile, the workers who actually make them likely never see their net worth increase because of it, and the executives do. This is a story that's been repeated for centuries.
Re:Greece introduces the six day work week by pjerem on Thursday July 04, 2024 @02:11AM (#40872712)
Sure but do you know someone who doesn’t have chairs ? I mean, sure, there are people setting up in their first house, people who broke their existing chairs … but there is a lot of available options on the aftermarket.

I understand why you would want brand new chairs. My brain also does want them because they are pretty, because they goes well with your interior etc ...

But brand new chairs are far from a need we need to solve. And we are destroying our planet and our workers health for more chairs than there is asses on this planet.

Re:Greece introduces the six day work week by Aerroon on Thursday July 04, 2024 @04:41AM (#40873368)
Chairs are just an example. This applies to every product that gets a productivity increase from chairs to batteries to apples to computers to planes.
Re:Greece introduces the six day work week by pjerem on Thursday July 04, 2024 @06:59AM (#40873900)
My point is that, with the exception of food and possibly medicine, this reasoning applies to basically everything.

As an exercise of thought, if we magically stopped the economy now like, everyone stopped working and paying for housing and credit and given a magic influx of food, most humans in the world would not need anything else to be happy for a long time.

Of course it’s just an exercice of thought, we do need to replace some objects sometimes, we do need people to fix things. But apart from food, there is barely any object that we would need that isn’t already available somewhere in the world.

The thing is, mostly nobody is a farmer : most people in the world are producing or helping producing things we already have.

Re:Greece introduces the six day work week by pjerem on Thursday July 04, 2024 @02:02AM (#40872670)
That’s because we use automation to solve problems and create needs we never had.

I mean, nowadays we solved pretty any need the average human had 100 years ago.

Our leaders are convinced that we must grow and grow, but we basically have everything we need to be a happy species in the long term.

What we are doing now is working (here 6 days a week) to solve inexistant problems marketers are creating while going full throttle both in burn-out and in the environmental wall.

In the meantime, while we are working hard releasing SaaS softwares, there have never been fewer farmers which, historically, have been the job of pretty any human in the last millennia.

If we don’t change this paradigm, we are at risk of dying stupidly from climate induced famine or wars just because we needed the latest smartphone.

Don’t get me wrong : I understand how at the end of the day, in the current system, all of this supports our basic needs. But we need to think about another system because we are going to destroy environment and human psyche.