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Re:The Engineer Who Refused to Approve the Challenger Launch by psunavy03 on Friday June 21, 2024 @12:42PM (#40751290)
The correct answer in that case is to go to the Inspector General. That's what they're there for. Leaders sweeping shit under the rug that ends up crippling a fleet asset and preventing tasking from higher is precisely the kind of negligence and incompetence the IG is designed to root out.

And I say that as a retired officer.

Re:The Engineer Who Refused to Approve the Challenger Launch by CoastalCoder on Friday June 21, 2024 @02:15PM (#40752197)
Honest question: what are the plausible outcomes for an engineer who reports this kind of issue to the IG?

I'm guessing there's a real possibility of it ending his career, at least as a member of the military.

Re:The Engineer Who Refused to Approve the Challenger Launch by banku_brougham on Friday June 21, 2024 @02:59PM (#40752562)
I seriously believe what I've heard about upwards failure. Being competent seems to be an impediment, and the goons at the very top are ludicrously malformed people.
Re:The Engineer Who Refused to Approve the Challenger Launch by willcipriano on Friday June 21, 2024 @03:11PM (#40752654)
The incompetent group together, they have to in order to survive.

The competent don't group together, they don't need to. They can take care of themselves.

The former uses their power as a group against the individuals in the latter.

Basically the plot of Atlas Shrugged.

Re:The Engineer Who Refused to Approve the Challenger Launch by conradolandia on Friday June 21, 2024 @05:09PM (#40753844)
Atlas Shrugged? The book written by that demented woman who couldn't deal with her own feelings but told everyone how individualism was the answer to everything while living thanks to other people's support?

That book?

Re:The Engineer Who Refused to Approve the Challenger Launch by willcipriano on Friday June 21, 2024 @05:10PM (#40753854)
Yeah the one were people attack the author rather than the idea because they aren't competent enough to do so.
Re:The Engineer Who Refused to Approve the Challenger Launch by Loughla on Friday June 21, 2024 @06:01PM (#40754297)
Objectivism, like many philosophies or political beliefs, only works in an absolute vacuum.

Maybe the one person who survives the first trip to Mars can practice it.

Re:The Engineer Who Refused to Approve the Challenger Launch by willcipriano on Friday June 21, 2024 @06:12PM (#40754387)
I'm not an objectivist. My comment is the extent of the Ayn Rand beliefs I hold for my most part.

When you work on ideas instead of personalities you get to do that.

Nobody here tried to disprove my comment. Just a few people starting complaining about a dead woman whose book I mentioned in passing.

They got together and argued, incompetently. Demonstrating the effect I was attempting to illustrate.

Re:The Engineer Who Refused to Approve the Challenger Launch by johnnyanmac on Saturday June 22, 2024 @06:53AM (#40757993)
i guess the true fate is the competent arguing amongst one another in an attempt to establish who is most competent, while the incompetent group together and bask in the real rewards. The goals of the incompetent are simple and tangible. The goals of the competent are abstract, as they seek acceptance from their fellow competent peers
Re:The Engineer Who Refused to Approve the Challenger Launch by psunavy03 on Friday June 21, 2024 @05:16PM (#40753906)
Objectivism: that fart-huffing philosophy that leads people to think everyone else is incompetent to judge it, when it's just a bunch of hateful trash that is to the right as Marxism is to the left.
Re:The Engineer Who Refused to Approve the Challenger Launch by kaliqt on Saturday June 22, 2024 @04:19AM (#40757376)
That doesn't hold water.
Re:The Engineer Who Refused to Approve the Challenger Launch by psunavy03 on Friday June 21, 2024 @04:35PM (#40753530)
The IG is an independent entity which exists to investigate misconduct and fraud/waste/abuse. There are Inspectors General at all levels from local bases up to the Secretary of Defense, and they have confidential reporting hotlines. The only thing worse for a commander than having shenanigans be substantiated at an IG investigation is to have been found to tolerate retaliation against the reporters.

Generally about every month or two, a Navy commanding officer gets canned for "loss of confidence in his/her ability to command." They aren't bulletproof, quite the opposite. And leaving out cases of alcohol misuse and/or sexual misconduct, other common causes are things within the IG's purview.

Re:The Engineer Who Refused to Approve the Challenger Launch by buildsjets on Friday June 21, 2024 @05:55PM (#40754254)
It sounds like a certain commercial aircraft manufacturer that starts with a B and ends with an oeing could really use an effective Inspector General system.
Re:The Engineer Who Refused to Approve the Challenger Launch by theK on Saturday June 22, 2024 @03:41AM (#40757208)
Probably. The biggest blind spot internal auditors have is things that didn't leave a paper trail.

It is too common that such investigations don't even start because there is just one connecting piece of evidence missing.

Leave a paper trail people!

Re:The Engineer Who Refused to Approve the Challenger Launch by jiggawatts on Friday June 21, 2024 @07:46PM (#40755010)
Much more realistically:

Individual A reports a unique or rare problem. Everyone knows it is reported by person A.

Nothing is done.

Person A reports the problem "anonymously" to some third party, which raises a stink about the problem.

Now everyone knows that person A reported the problem to the third party.

This is why I (almost) never blow the whistle. It's an automatic career-ending move, and any protections are make-believe at best.

Re:The Engineer Who Refused to Approve the Challenger Launch by psunavy03 on Friday June 21, 2024 @10:58PM (#40755878)
Then Person A needs to haul their butt to the Defense Service Office, call their Member of Congress, and tell the "anonymous" hotline that they've been retaliated against.

I'm not pretending this is some magic ticket to puppy-rainbow-fairy land where retaliation never occurs, but ultimately, how much do you care about your shipmates? I had a CPO once as one of my direct reports committing major misconduct and threatening my shop with retaliation if they reported it. I could have helped crush the bastard if someone had come forward to me, but no one ever did until I'd turned over the division to someone else, after which it blew up. Sure, he eventually got found out, but still. He was a great con artist and he pulled the wool over my eyes, but all I'd have needed is one person cluing me in to that snake.

Speaking from the senior officer level, we're not all some cabal trying to sweep shit under the rug. And the IGs, as much as they're feared, aren't out to nail people to the wall who haven't legitimately done bad things. I'm sorry you've had the experience you've had, but that doesn't mean that everyone above you was some big blue wall willing to protect folks who've done wrong.

Re:The Engineer Who Refused to Approve the Challenger Launch by johnnyanmac on Saturday June 22, 2024 @06:47AM (#40757964)
heck, you're in the ship too. I'll take all the retalitation if I get to keep breathing. If they wanna kick me out over saving my own skin, fine. Saves me from deserting.
Re:The Engineer Who Refused to Approve the Challenger Launch by jjmarr on Saturday June 22, 2024 @12:59AM (#40756392)
The US Navy has over 300k active-duty personnel. I suppose it's easier to just go somewhere else where no-one knows who you are.
Re:The Engineer Who Refused to Approve the Challenger Launch by nativeit on Saturday June 22, 2024 @05:33AM (#40757659)
The person ignoring their subordinate’s reports to protect their own next promotion has entered the chat.
Re:The Engineer Who Refused to Approve the Challenger Launch by richie-guix on Friday June 21, 2024 @01:08PM (#40751570)
How long retired? Things have gone in what can only be described as an.. incomprehensible unfathomable direction in the last decade or so. Parent post is not surprising in the least.

Politics is seeping where it doesn't belong.

I am very worried.

Re:The Engineer Who Refused to Approve the Challenger Launch by HeatrayEnjoyer on Friday June 21, 2024 @01:23PM (#40751702)
Tell us more... what has happened?
Re:The Engineer Who Refused to Approve the Challenger Launch by richie-guix on Friday June 21, 2024 @01:34PM (#40751829)
To a first approximation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZB7xEonjsc

Less funny in real life. Sometimes the jizzless thing falls off with impeccably bad timing. Right when things go boom. People get injured (no deaths yet). Limp home early. Allies let down. Shipping routes elongate by a sad multiple. And it even affects you directly as you pay extra for that Dragon silicon toy you ordered from China.

Re:The Engineer Who Refused to Approve the Challenger Launch by dontlikeyoueith on Friday June 21, 2024 @02:13PM (#40752178)
Just google the Red Hill failure.

The Navy's careerist, bureaucratic incompetence is staggering. No better than Putin's generals who looted the military budget and crippled his army so they couldn't even beat a military a fraction of their size.

Re:The Engineer Who Refused to Approve the Challenger Launch by richie-guix on Friday June 21, 2024 @02:35PM (#40752340)
The unfathomable part is you getting downvotes for citing a well known mainstream news story.
Re:The Engineer Who Refused to Approve the Challenger Launch by psunavy03 on Friday June 21, 2024 @04:38PM (#40753554)
Recently. For those who've served, it's not a surprise to see the constant drumbeat of commanding officers being relieved of command every month or so. COs are not bulletproof, and the last thing anyone in the seat wants is to end up crossways with the IG. And there are confidential ways Sailors can get in touch with them if needed.

Or with their Member of Congress, who can also go to Big Navy and ask "WTF is going on with my constituent?"