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Re:Edinburgh, Scotland makes it illegal to advertise SUVs by Synaesthesia on Sunday June 16, 2024 @01:44PM (#40698787)
It's sad that SUV's proliferated, especially after the relatively climate and environment-aware decades of the 80's and 90's but I've realised that only governments can enact sensible environmental laws.

Like for instance how China banned single serving plastic usage.

Re:Edinburgh, Scotland makes it illegal to advertise SUVs by gruez on Sunday June 16, 2024 @02:03PM (#40698910)
>It's sad that SUV's proliferated,

Sales for true "SUVs" (ie. cars that are built on top of a truck platform) have stayed relatively stable, and most of the "SUVs" you see are actually crossovers[1]. This might seem like a pointless distinction, but crossovers are closer to cars than SUVs, and aren't as bad for the environment as you think. The best selling crossover is the Toyota RAV4[2], which gets 30 mpg. The best selling sedan (Toyota Camry) gets 32 mpg, or 6.7% more.

[1] https://advocacy.consumerreports.org/research/the-rise-of-th...

[2] https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g43553191/bestselling-cars...

Re:Edinburgh, Scotland makes it illegal to advertise SUVs by wincy on Sunday June 16, 2024 @03:50PM (#40699584)
Right, the “actual SUV” by Toyota is the Sequoia, which is substantially larger, can tow things, and gets about 18mpg.
Re:Edinburgh, Scotland makes it illegal to advertise SUVs by reducesuffering on Sunday June 16, 2024 @04:09PM (#40699732)
But now the only Camrys being sold new in the US get 51mpg.
Re:Edinburgh, Scotland makes it illegal to advertise SUVs by tonyg on Sunday June 16, 2024 @02:29PM (#40699055)
32 mpg isn't great compared to e.g. a boring Toyota hybrid.
Re:Edinburgh, Scotland makes it illegal to advertise SUVs by numpad0 on Sunday June 16, 2024 @03:29PM (#40699449)
RAV4 is a Toyota vehicle available as ICE, HV, and PHEV...
Re:Edinburgh, Scotland makes it illegal to advertise SUVs by creato on Sunday June 16, 2024 @02:40PM (#40699113)
You can also get hybrid crossover SUVs that are going to be off by a similar factor from a hybrid sedan.
Re:Edinburgh, Scotland makes it illegal to advertise SUVs by potatochup on Sunday June 16, 2024 @02:40PM (#40699112)
Agreed. My 1972 MGB got 28mpg. I realize cars have improved in many ways since then (crash safety, NOx emissions, comfort) but I feel like in 50 years we stopped caring about efficiency as much.
Re:Edinburgh, Scotland makes it illegal to advertise SUVs by whaleofatw2022 on Sunday June 16, 2024 @02:57PM (#40699236)
Many of the MPG winds of the 90s and 00s were eaten back up by mandated safety standards. A 2020 focus weighs 10-20% more than a 2000 MY one, for example.

My 1998 SC2 Weighed ~2400 pounds and got MPG in the low 30s (35+ on the highway).

> NOx emissions

Managing that often impacts fuel economy. Ask VW group =)

Re:Edinburgh, Scotland makes it illegal to advertise SUVs by el_duderino_ on Sunday June 16, 2024 @02:43PM (#40699133)
The posters point was that crossovers are not true SUV’s, they are built on a sedan frame not a truck frame. It is pretty great when compared to the 20mpg average of a Tacoma truck.

Hybrids are great, but it is sidestepping the point that the poster was trying to make.

Re:Edinburgh, Scotland makes it illegal to advertise SUVs by lolinder on Sunday June 16, 2024 @02:41PM (#40699122)
Apple to oranges much? If we want to ban all pure ICE vehicles then let's discuss that, but if most "SUV" sales today get comparable MPG to other pure ICE vehicles then it's misleading for people to keep citing the stat that SUV sales are rising with the understanding that this means that average MPG is declining.
Re:Edinburgh, Scotland makes it illegal to advertise SUVs by dzhiurgis on Sunday June 16, 2024 @04:27PM (#40699834)
Pretty sure tesla model y outsels rav4…
Re:Edinburgh, Scotland makes it illegal to advertise SUVs by IX-103 on Sunday June 16, 2024 @02:01PM (#40698901)
I think the proliferation of SUVs in America is almost completely due to environmental laws. There are different fuel efficiency standards for cars and for trucks. Since the standards for trucks are so much looser, someone had the bright idea to build a car body on a truck frame. That way they only had to meet the truck standards.

Later laws were changed to recognize SUV as a separate class, but the standards are still just a gradual improvement over truck standards, and not near where car requirements are.

Re:Edinburgh, Scotland makes it illegal to advertise SUVs by jandrewrogers on Sunday June 16, 2024 @03:11PM (#40699325)
This is an oversimplification.

In substantial parts of the US, the geography and climate recommend an AWD with high ground clearance. Most modern SUVs are not built on truck frames and have fuel efficiency similar to sedans. Decades ago this market was originally met either by modifying a 4WD truck to make it passenger friendly (e.g. "true SUV" like the Ford Bronco) or a handful of low-cost Japanese cars, notably Subaru. There was a vast market gap between these two options.

Most modern SUVs don't resemble either but instead split the difference. They are essentially sedans modified to support AWD and high ground clearance. The 2WD versions are essentially a minivan without the sliding doors. A "true" SUV has 4WD and a frame built more like a truck but these are relatively rare in the SUV market.

There are still no electric cars that address the old Subaru market, so in the US we will be stuck with SUVs for quite some time.

Re:Edinburgh, Scotland makes it illegal to advertise SUVs by lolinder on Sunday June 16, 2024 @02:49PM (#40699174)
I'm having a hard time understanding why consumers went for SUVs in this interpretation. Did they just really want to pollute more? Do regular cars have too high a gas mileage for their liking? It certainly wasn't that the SUV was able to become the cheaper option!

Skirting emissions laws only works as a complete explanation if it can account for consumer behavior.

My sense from talking to people who own them is that they chose them because they could function as a truck or as a minivan depending on what they need to do at the time, without having to own both. That's a much less exciting explanation than yours, but it does account for both consumer behavior and manufacturer behavior. Emissions laws may very well have increased manufacturer margins on these vehicles, but they're filling a real need in people's lives.

Re:Edinburgh, Scotland makes it illegal to advertise SUVs by wincy on Sunday June 16, 2024 @03:57PM (#40699651)
I just bought a 2024 Toyota Sequoia. It’s a “real SUV” and uses the same engine as the Toyota Tundra.

For us, we wanted a vehicle that could tow a Camper Trailer, and one that could hold my daughter’s wheelchair easily, as well as her friends. A minivan would have fulfilled the wheelchair requirement, but it’s my wife’s dream vehicle, and I really want my youngest daughter to get the same camping trip experiences despite having special needs (like water and a sterile environment to wash up and catheter her, so a camper is a necessity if we want to “camp”).

Something like the Cybertruck wasn’t even a consideration, because it can haul maybe 90 miles for a camper trailer, based on what I’ve seen in testing.

Re:Edinburgh, Scotland makes it illegal to advertise SUVs by treyd on Sunday June 16, 2024 @03:09PM (#40699313)
People bought them because the advertising promoted them. They were advertised them because it let the manufacturers meet a lower emissions standard and pay a lower cost to manufacture the vehicle. It's not a conspiracy, it's not individual choice, it's just economics and marketing.
Re:Edinburgh, Scotland makes it illegal to advertise SUVs by lolinder on Sunday June 16, 2024 @03:15PM (#40699365)
I'm ready and willing to believe that marketing is part of the story, but I'm far from willing to believe that it's the whole story. This other commenter explains a lot of the benefits that people find from SUVs far better than I could myself:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40699325

This isn't a diamond ring situation where someone created demand out of nothing.

Re:Edinburgh, Scotland makes it illegal to advertise SUVs by stefan_ on Sunday June 16, 2024 @03:19PM (#40699391)
Why is that so unbelievable? There is a well documented correlation between fuel prices and the type of car consumers buy, while of course the needs stay the same - if anything, todays consumers have less use for a large car than ever.

So what are we to conclude? Yes, the majority of US car buyers will literally buy the biggest gas guzzling pollution spewer they can afford. Call it revealed preferences, although it's hardly obscured - hell, a large number of people vote on the premise that gas must be $5 forever.

Re:Edinburgh, Scotland makes it illegal to advertise SUVs by lolinder on Sunday June 16, 2024 @03:23PM (#40699411)
> Yes, the majority of US car buyers will literally buy the biggest gas guzzling pollution spewer they can afford.

This would be a sufficient explanation if and only if SUVs were cheaper than trucks. They're not, so the rising popularity of SUVs cannot be because skirting emissions regulations allowed selling a cheaper gas guzzler.

(This is aside from the fact that is referenced by another comment further up [0] that most modern SUVs aren't actually significantly less fuel efficient than traditional vehicles.)

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40698910

Re:Edinburgh, Scotland makes it illegal to advertise SUVs by hypeatei on Sunday June 16, 2024 @02:24PM (#40699030)
This is it. If someone is curious, look into the "SUV loophole" that automakers are using to skirt emissions regulations.
Re:Edinburgh, Scotland makes it illegal to advertise SUVs by adolph on Sunday June 16, 2024 @03:32PM (#40699474)
For more on the loophole along with what might happen next: https://www.capitalone.com/cars/learn/finding-the-right-car/...

While the loophole isn't going away completely, the tougher rules may cause some manufacturers to rethink trends and add more small cars to their lineups.

However, it's more likely that the opposite will happen. Americans love SUVs and trucks; even pandemic pricing didn't convince many shoppers to switch to a smaller car. Instead, we've seen manufacturers building even larger electric vehicles

Re:Edinburgh, Scotland makes it illegal to advertise SUVs by crote on Sunday June 16, 2024 @02:11PM (#40698954)
> Like for instance how China banned single serving plastic usage.

Even that probably isn't sensible. Banning single-use plastic leads to a shift to single-use paper, single-use wood, or single-use metal - all of which are even worse for the environment. The problem isn't the "plastic" part, the problem is the "single-use" part.

Re:Edinburgh, Scotland makes it illegal to advertise SUVs by bobthepanda on Sunday June 16, 2024 @02:15PM (#40698984)
Bad for the environment has multiple facets to it.

For example, we already know that plastics form a lot of the trash in the ocean; but now we also know that these plastics shed microplastics pervasively as well.

Re:Edinburgh, Scotland makes it illegal to advertise SUVs by Hnrobert42 on Sunday June 16, 2024 @02:16PM (#40698988)
How is single use paper even worse for the environment than single use plastic?
Re:Edinburgh, Scotland makes it illegal to advertise SUVs by Contortion on Sunday June 16, 2024 @02:26PM (#40699037)
Paper is environmentally expensive to produce and recycle. If it's worse than plastic is surely debatable but it's definitely not significantly better.

https://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/green-scienc...

Re:Edinburgh, Scotland makes it illegal to advertise SUVs by jankeymeulen on Sunday June 16, 2024 @02:45PM (#40699144)
but paper that ends up in the environment is almost surely better
Re:Edinburgh, Scotland makes it illegal to advertise SUVs by dzhiurgis on Sunday June 16, 2024 @04:35PM (#40699889)
I can imagine paper bag rotting away and producing methane while plastic bag inert for centuries.

Short term global warming seems far bigger issue than plastic waste (which is manageable)

Re:Edinburgh, Scotland makes it illegal to advertise SUVs by bobthepanda on Sunday June 16, 2024 @08:45PM (#40701349)
Microplastic seems to be a public health issue.
Re:Edinburgh, Scotland makes it illegal to advertise SUVs by dzhiurgis on Sunday June 16, 2024 @09:38PM (#40701581)
Nothing conclusive tho. More like - it's everywhere, some of it might be dangerous.
Re:Edinburgh, Scotland makes it illegal to advertise SUVs by Dudhbbh3343 on Sunday June 16, 2024 @02:16PM (#40698986)
Rather than bans, all these materials with environmental externalities should be taxed at an appropriate rate. Then the market can find the optimal material for each use case.
Re:Edinburgh, Scotland makes it illegal to advertise SUVs by dredmorbius on Sunday June 16, 2024 @03:34PM (#40699484)
This presumes that the process which establishes taxation levels is completely independent of the current profitability and power of those companies involved in their present creation.

The history of negative-externalities-generating industries --- lead, asbestos, tobacco, alcohol, CFCs, amongst others --- suggests that this may not be the case.

Re:Edinburgh, Scotland makes it illegal to advertise SUVs by thenthenthen on Sunday June 16, 2024 @02:16PM (#40698989)
All the straws here in China are made from PLA… the polymer. Not sure how well that breaks down though, but hey, at least you get a free plastic bag with insulation with it!
Re:Edinburgh, Scotland makes it illegal to advertise SUVs by trgn on Sunday June 16, 2024 @01:59PM (#40698884)
A tragedy of the commons can only be solved top down.
Re:Edinburgh, Scotland makes it illegal to advertise SUVs by dredmorbius on Sunday June 16, 2024 @03:40PM (#40699511)
Actually, that's not the case, and wasn't even the argument made in Garrett Hardin's original essay on the topic, which suggested instead privatisation as a frequently-effective mechanism.

Those who are opposed to that approach on the basis of criticisms of enclosures acts and the end of traditional commons have many arguments on their side, but the general effectiveness of privatisation in that particular case is not amongst them.

(Hardin is also pointedly arguing about a far larger problem, including of commons which are less readily closed such as ocean fisheries, and of the total global human population of Earth, in which privatisation might not hold, or for which other approaches, some of which are strongly criticised today, might be applied.)

The one dynamic which solving a tragedy of the commons requires is that it not be possible to privatise gains whilst socialising costs, which drives the entire logic of the tragedy. How that is arrived at still leaves multiple options.

Re:Edinburgh, Scotland makes it illegal to advertise SUVs by lim_nick on Sunday June 16, 2024 @01:48PM (#40698813)
Would love to hear some more about your realization. Any thoughts on what it is about either governments or sensible environmental laws that makes this the case?

edit: After rereading I realized I misinterpreted your post. I read "enact" to mean "enact and enforce" but in a sense you are correct that only governments can enact legislation. I see now you made no claims about ability to design enforceable policy.

Re:Edinburgh, Scotland makes it illegal to advertise SUVs by notfed on Sunday June 16, 2024 @02:28PM (#40699047)
I think you mean "it's sad that cars proliferated". Whether people have SUVs or Sedans doesn't move the doomsday clock by much.
Re:Edinburgh, Scotland makes it illegal to advertise SUVs by potatochup on Sunday June 16, 2024 @02:45PM (#40699143)
I dunno. A Toyota RAV4 hybrid gets 41/38 city/highway mpg, but a Prius gets 57/56. That's 46% more efficient. Gas is just so cheap in the USA it barely matters.
Re:Edinburgh, Scotland makes it illegal to advertise SUVs by paulddraper on Sunday June 16, 2024 @02:27PM (#40699042)
SUVs proliferated because of environmental laws.

Sedans/minivans are held to more stringent fuel efficiency standards, particularly after the Obama-era EPA regulations. [1] This has promoted the sale of larger vehicles/trucks.

[1] https://newrepublic.com/article/180044/epa-small-cars-sedan-...

Re:Edinburgh, Scotland makes it illegal to advertise SUVs by cscurmudgeon on Sunday June 16, 2024 @03:27PM (#40699433)
> Like for instance how China banned single serving plastic usage.

It is not that clear cut in that case.

> In fact, life-cycle assessments on items such as single-use plastic bags have shown that there is a discrepancy between actual re-use rates of alternative bags and the re-use rate to break even on environmental grounds. Paper bags need to be re-used four times, LDPE bags five times, non-woven PP bags 14 times and cotton bags 173 times. Their actual re-use rates are about half that, making them less sustainable than single-use plastic bags, which may also be used by consumers as bin liners.

https://thehill.com/opinion/energy-environment/3620887-would...

Re:Edinburgh, Scotland makes it illegal to advertise SUVs by xenophonf on Sunday June 16, 2024 @05:37PM (#40700332)
I'd read the linked article very critically:

1. It's an opinion piece, not evidence-based and peer-reviewed research.

2. It's written by a lobbyist who's parent organization gets funding in part from neo-reactionaries, including the Charles G. Koch Foundation.

3. The same author argues elsewhere for Europe and the U.S. to "put all their climate ambitions in the back burner, refine more oil and cooperate to deliver it quickly and effectively"; cf. https://web.archive.org/web/20220908091610/https://la-chroni....

4. The opinion piece cites another opinion piece written by the same author for Newsmax, a non-credible far-right media company.

5. It also cites "Five Misperceptions Surrounding the Environmental Impacts of Single-Use Plastic," published in _Environmental Science and Technology_, an impactful peer-reviewed scientific journal, but the article is not without its detractors and must be read critically as well; cf. https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.0c07842.

6. The opinion piece redundantly cites a web page written by the author of "Five Misperceptions...". Said web page makes the same arguments as the ES&T article.

7. The opinion piece quotes a number of unrelated facts and figures.

Re:Edinburgh, Scotland makes it illegal to advertise SUVs by cscurmudgeon on Thursday June 20, 2024 @03:05AM (#40735796)
Should we apply this level of examination for every HN comment. Responding to you.

1. Opinion pieces can cite evidence-based and peer-reviewed research

2. Ad hominem

3. Ad hominem

4. Ad hominem

5. Ad hominem and Straw Man:

6. and 7. Straw man

Re:Edinburgh, Scotland makes it illegal to advertise SUVs by overstay8930 on Sunday June 16, 2024 @04:52PM (#40699996)
> banned single serving plastic usage

This is not sensible and has a negligible impact on the environment - it almost always is worse, actually.

Kinda like how single use plastic bags are better for the environment than a single reusable cotton bag purely because reusable bags would need to be used for a decade to break even with 10,000 single use plastic bags, which almost never happens.