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Re:Lynn Conway Has Died by docmars on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @03:48PM (#40650661)
I think an important distinction people are looking for is:

It's not the mere existence of a person that's an issue, but rather the coercive, punishing activism that takes place around a false idea that human rights are at risk, while these personal choices are simultaneously being celebrated by nearly every government institution and major corporation in existence.

The same activism requires full acceptance by parents, families, and children who do not want these choices influencing their personal lives.

To say these rights are at risk is an outright lie.

It's one thing to have a significant voter base opposed to those choices and still be fully able to live and express those choices freely and publicly — while it's a whole different issue to have governments actively enforcing a different private life against their will (specifically LGBTQ folks).

(Edits: re-word for clarification)

Re:Lynn Conway Has Died by appalp on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @04:13PM (#40650944)
Exactly. Although they are often erroneously conflated, this is the key point that distinguishes gay rights activism from trans activism.

For the former, we campaigned for equal treatment under the law. Like when we said we want to get married, we made the point that this doesn't affect in any way the marriage that heterosexual people have, because the rights are actually the same.

The trans activists don't want that. Equal treatment and tolerance isn't enough for them, they demand dominance above all else.

Re:Lynn Conway Has Died by docmars on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @04:19PM (#40651001)
Agreed. This is evidenced by the existence of boards enforcing ESG standards, and management enforcing DEI programs throughout most corporations and businesses, in order to protect against even the slightest perceived threat against discriminatory hiring decisions made entirely around immutable traits, rather than skill and merit.

Disney's leaked hiring standards document earlier this year is a smoking gun, and it's a safe assumption most other corporations towing the same line have the same or similar reprehensible hiring standards.

DEI is patently anti-white and anti-straight, and its rhetoric and materials (everything from training to editorials) are not shy about expressing it in plain terms that it is a revenge campaign masked by good intentions and a smile. All in a way that mirrors the beginnings of 20th century atrocities around the world, that were also rooted in hatred towards specific groups perceived as threats to society on the basis of immutable traits.

Re:Lynn Conway Has Died by not_alexb on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @04:50PM (#40651310)
> The trans activists don't want that. Equal treatment and tolerance isn't enough for them, they demand dominance above all else.

Equal treatment and tolerance.. Ever since I started transitioning, people have treated me much worse, and I live in a so called liberal city. My pharmacist looks at me like I'm a freak. I've had slurs thrown at me several times while I'm just out minding my business. Half my family wont even... I don't know what parallel universe you live in where people are treated like this equally..

Where do you find all this time to hate on a group you don't even remotely understand? I'm happier than I've ever been and it seems like all of yall are making it your business to make that as miserable as possible.

Re:Lynn Conway Has Died by docmars on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @04:57PM (#40651378)
Outside of calling it hate, why do you think people even in the most "allied" places respond to you in that way? Do you think perhaps they're afraid they may be helping an activist who may deem their services unacceptable? The track record has it that in these situations, service providers are at a major disadvantage, if anything remotely goes wrong during their interactions.

If activists belonging to protected classes are creating such enormous fear, do you feel misrepresented by them? What are you willing to do to help remove that fear? Do you think it creates an unfair imbalance?

Re:Lynn Conway Has Died by not_alexb on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @05:10PM (#40651525)
This writing has a lot of parallels with the writings of men who are scared of women after the metoo movement.

Anyway, you're conflating fear with disgust. I haven't seen much fear, if at all; what I have seen a lot of is, hate that looks the exact same as before trans activists had any platform.

Re:Lynn Conway Has Died by docmars on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @05:21PM (#40651650)
Do you think that reaction is natural, given the patterns and preferences of most of human society?
Re:Lynn Conway Has Died by not_alexb on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @05:33PM (#40651796)
This has little to do with human society. Western society, maybe. Plenty of other societies don't assert a distinct binary for gender (which doesn't even exist in sex; intersex people exist at the same rates as people that are red-headed, and you wouldnt call red heads unnatural).

Even if it was "natural" you're making the choice to treat someone like shit. You can backpedal onto what all your peers are doing all you want, but that doesn't change how you as an individual are making another human being, who has done nothing to you, feel

Re:Lynn Conway Has Died by flFlflFl on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @05:39PM (#40651880)
> intersex people exist at the same rates as people that are red-headed

Not true.

> the choice to treat someone like shit

Telling a man he's a man and that he's not allowed in the women's locker room or whatever isn't treating him like shit, it's treating him like any other man.

Re:Lynn Conway Has Died by docmars on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @05:46PM (#40651957)
> you wouldnt call red heads unnatural

I'm not aware of anyone trying to alter their own genes to be red-headed, and for those who dye their hair, I don't see them holding parades exposing their genitalia to minors. I also don't see anyone getting fired from their jobs for openly disliking red hair, out of personal preference.

> who has done nothing to you

Not personally, no, but fads widely supported by institutions and corporations have major consequences. Parents are choosing their children's gender and following through with irreversible transition surgery in order to gain status among their peers, politically. This surgery is not only costly, but potentially lethal, given how necessary it is for long-term use of antibiotics and resistances that develop as a result.

Re:Lynn Conway Has Died by fleetingmoments on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @04:30AM (#40655849)
Classic case of conservatives being deathly afraid of things that only exist in their imaginations.
Re:Lynn Conway Has Died by docmars on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @10:35AM (#40658662)
I'll refer you to this tiny snippet of overwhelming evidence:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40658653

Re:Lynn Conway Has Died by jmcgough on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @06:01AM (#40656369)
No one is performing surgeries on children. You need to get your news from more fact-based sources.
Re:Lynn Conway Has Died by sophacles on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @06:06PM (#40652158)
Why do service providers who provide inadequate service need protection? They choose to be shitty service providers and they suffer the consequences. Basic free-market right there bud - either the market wants the same thing as the activists and money, prestige, etc flow to those who agree with the activists, or the market doesn't want it and those service providers who the activists are happy with fails.
Re:Lynn Conway Has Died by pseudalopex on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @04:51PM (#40651318)
> Like when we said we want to get married, we made the point that this doesn't affect in any way the marriage that heterosexual people have, because the rights are actually the same.

> The trans activists don't want that. Equal treatment and tolerance isn't enough for them, they demand dominance above all else.

Gay rights opponents said the same about you. A gay man and a straight man had the same right to marry a woman. You denied it was equal. And a separate but mostly equal status wasn't enough for you. You demanded they call it marriage.

Re:Lynn Conway Has Died by polairscience on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @03:53PM (#40650729)
While I agree that institutions and corporations are more actively participating in human rights issues in the recent past, something I think is a really good thing, I don't see the aspects of that coverage that are coercive or punishing. Your argument disingenuous on two points:

1) Nowhere, in history, does "government actively enforcing a different private life against one's will" mean "you are forced to live or participate in a transgender life". For the entirety of history government and corporations have actively forced "different" people like Lynn to conform to your expectations of them. See Lynn being fired from IBM.

2) "To say they are at risk is an outright lie". The rhetoric and social norms around the existence of transgender people enables violent people to murder them. They are absolutely actively at risk. What other phrase, besides "at risk", would you use to explain that transgender people are 4 times more likely to be murdered. They are literally killed for being different and because we dehumanize them.

I look forward to the day that what you say is true. That there are people who oppose those choices but that transgender people can live a free and public life without being murdered for being themselves. I think what you're putting forward sounds great.

Re:Lynn Conway Has Died by docmars on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @04:12PM (#40650933)
1) On your first point — I think you misunderstood what I meant by government enforcement. I'm talking about governments that actively force people not to be LGBTQ. The point I'm making is that this is very different from having a significant population patently against this lifestyle, which cannot be construed as government enforcement.

It's the desire towards widely accepted societal norms, and a pushback against disrupting long-established acceptable norms.

2) The same applies to Black on Black crime, except hundredfold. The same applies to violence against straight White people. Every group suffers from targeted violence — an no amount of data to prove how disproportionate it is makes any instance more right/justified than another.

Similar to your wishes, I hope there's a day when random White people on the street aren't mobbed by dozens, if not hundreds, of people who aren't White. I've lost count how many videos I've seen of this happening. I'd love to see a world where transgender teenagers and young adults aren't motivated to shoot up Christian schools. I'd love to see no discriminatory violence at all someday — but it cannot come at the cost of marginalizing majority groups who are just trying to live normal lives too, and too often, it does.

Re:Lynn Conway Has Died by Vegenoid on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @06:44PM (#40652527)
> these personal choices are simultaneously being celebrated by nearly every government institution and major corporation in existence

This is very incorrect, and an indicator that you should broaden the sources you get information from. Your other comments corroborate this, you have skewed view of the world that is based on looking at a small slice. It's not that they're fabricating things, it's that they do not give you an accurate view of the magnitudes of the forces and movements in the world.