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Re:California is about to side with PG&E – again – to kill c... by cjensen on Tuesday May 28, 2024 @03:02PM (#40504252)
Just for factual background, engaging data has a new infographic about California energy production that is useful [1]

Worth noting that there isn't a lot of room for growth of solar that isn't battery-backed. California exports a ton of energy during the bright months. As a practical matter, the era of sending excess rooftop solar generation to the grid is over.

[1] https://engaging-data.com/california-electricity-generation/

Re:California is about to side with PG&E – again – to kill c... by opprobium on Tuesday May 28, 2024 @03:14PM (#40504409)
If you look at that graph for a whole day you will see a huge kick-in of power company owned battery storage in the evening. There is no reason the grid cannot operate batteries at scale to absorb excess rooftop generation. NYT: https://archive.is/t1uPj
Re:California is about to side with PG&E – again – to kill c... by toomuchtodo on Tuesday May 28, 2024 @03:28PM (#40504595)
For profit utility participants are desperately afraid of their return on equity being crushed by the new energy model, hence the need for strong political response from the citizenry. The grid can absolutely operate in the manner you describe, but profits will be diminished and investors will struggle to reach for previous profit potential unless you're in a non profit config (coop and whatnot).

Shades of "The Innovator's Dilemma" and what not. Incumbents do not care for their gravy train being taken away.

Edit: https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=40913 ("Investor-owned utilities served 72% of U.S. electricity customers in 2017")

> Investor-owned utilities, or IOUs, are large electric distributors that issue stock owned by shareholders. Almost three-quarters of utility customers get their electricity from these companies. IOUs are most prevalent in heavily populated areas on the East and West coasts. In 2017, 168 IOUs served an average of 654,600 electric customers. The two largest IOUs are in California: Pacific Gas and Electric, with 5.48 million customers, and Southern California Edison Company, with 5.07 million customers.

Re:California is about to side with PG&E – again – to kill c... by exabrial on Tuesday May 28, 2024 @03:56PM (#40504897)
So... exactly what the OP said?: They can't take any more solar input. They need battery I/O.
Re:California is about to side with PG&E – again – to kill c... by opprobium on Tuesday May 28, 2024 @04:05PM (#40504972)
No, not exactly. "the era of sending excess rooftop solar generation to the grid is over" is the OP's statement I disagree with. "They can't take any more solar input", yes they can, by adding more grid battery, which is currently happening.
Re:California is about to side with PG&E – again – to kill c... by s1artibartfast on Tuesday May 28, 2024 @04:19PM (#40505145)
Where are you reading that. the poster literally said "Worth noting that there isn't a lot of room for growth of solar that isn't battery-backed"
Re:California is about to side with PG&E – again – to kill c... by collingreen on Tuesday May 28, 2024 @11:26PM (#40508118)
> Worth noting that there isn't a lot of room for growth of solar that isn't battery-backed. California exports a ton of energy during the bright months. As a practical matter, the era of sending excess rooftop solar generation to the grid is over.

They are referring to the last sentence in the paragraph you referenced.

Re:California is about to side with PG&E – again – to kill c... by bardak on Tuesday May 28, 2024 @03:11PM (#40504375)
I know BC hydro buys cheap power from other utilities to keep the reservoirs as full as possible. If California has excessive Solar power it could be used to keep the hydro reservoirs in BC, Washington, Oregon, and northern California full for other times.
Re:California is about to side with PG&E – again – to kill c... by tigerlily on Tuesday May 28, 2024 @03:19PM (#40504469)
That could be quite a good reason to build an HVDC link between the two regions.
Re:California is about to side with PG&E – again – to kill c... by briffle on Tuesday May 28, 2024 @03:39PM (#40504718)
There is already a 3GW HVDC line between The Dalles, OR, and LA. (one of the oldest HVDC links in the US).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_DC_Intertie

Re:California is about to side with PG&E – again – to kill c... by cameldrv on Tuesday May 28, 2024 @06:34PM (#40506325)
It seems like the next major energy invention we need is long-term storage. Batteries have gotten much more cost effective, but you still need to amortize their costs over hundreds of charge-discharge cycles to get a payback. They're too expensive to store summer energy for the winter.

If you had an energy storage technology that could store energy with a very low storage cost, even if it were very inefficient, you could make use of the massive coming excess of summer solar power.

Re:California is about to side with PG&E – again – to kill c... by euroderf on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @12:16AM (#40508403)
hydrogen, methane, ammonia, molten salt, sand battery, ... so many tradeoffs
Re:California is about to side with PG&E – again – to kill c... by shagie on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @12:18AM (#40508415)
https://www.energy.gov/eere/water/pumped-storage-hydropower

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricit...

https://www.opb.org/article/2024/02/10/controversial-energy-...

> A controversial energy project in south central Washington is one step closer to breaking ground. A federal commission released its final environmental review for the Goldendale Energy Storage Project — to the consternation of several tribes and environmental groups.

> The project is part of a potential solution to one of the biggest problems for renewable energy development: the variability of wind and solar. As the Northwest transitions off fossil fuels, power will need to be stored for when the sun doesn’t shine, and the wind doesn’t blow.

Re:California is about to side with PG&E – again – to kill c... by riku_iki on Tuesday May 28, 2024 @06:38PM (#40506351)
> California exports a ton of energy during the bright months.

cool, but prices for electricity in California still somehow 3 times higher than places where electricity is exported?..

Re:California is about to side with PG&E – again – to kill c... by ak217 on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @11:59PM (#40519939)
Electricity prices in California are 3x higher because of PG&E's monopoly on distribution combined with their wildfire risk liability from reckless power line building standards, not because of higher generation costs.
Re:California is about to side with PG&E – again – to kill c... by riku_iki on Thursday May 30, 2024 @12:04AM (#40519963)
sure, but somehow distribution and reckless do not impact export prices?
Re:California is about to side with PG&E – again – to kill c... by ak217 on Thursday May 30, 2024 @10:29AM (#40524179)
Correct. That's the difference between the wholesale spot price on the open market and what PG&E charges consumers on their bill.

There's lots of supply and less demand at noon in June compared to 6 pm in January. You're not going to get anywhere near average retail price for exports in either case, but especially not in the first one.

Out of state buyers don't care about PG&E's liabilities either, they are choosing from competing suppliers. They are not captive to PG&E's monopoly the way consumers are, so PG&E has no hope of charging them their retail rate.

Re:California is about to side with PG&E – again – to kill c... by mensetmanusman on Monday June 10, 2024 @05:39PM (#40639484)
Also bad forest management.