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Re:Every map of China is wrong by Reason077 on Thursday May 02, 2024 @08:43PM (#40242869)
Indeed, despite its apparent illegality, China seems to be fairly well-supported and well-mapped by OpenStreetMap, at least in major cities. And is entirely mapped in normal WGS-84 without the obfuscation problem.

In any case, according to Wikipedia, open-source code is available to convert between WGS-84 and the obfuscated GJC-02 coordinates.

Since technology seems to have caught up with it, is there any advantage (military or otherwise) for China to persist with obfuscation? Much like the US gave up on GPS "selective availability" years ago, there would seem now days to be more economic advantage to ditching obfuscation than there is security advantage of keeping it. Is not as if the missiles of China's enemies are going to get confused by China's obfuscated coordinates.

Is it just because of inertia that GJC-02 still exists?

Re:Every map of China is wrong by relaxing on Thursday May 02, 2024 @10:21PM (#40243377)
I want to know why Google hasn’t corrected their map overlays. The shift in the roads makes it frustrating to look at.
Re:Every map of China is wrong by shikon7 on Thursday May 02, 2024 @11:10PM (#40243638)
Because Chinese law forbids to convert their coordinates to WGS84, and using the Chinese coordinates for satellite data would give a discontinuity at the border. This is explained in the article.
Re:Every map of China is wrong by Reason077 on Thursday May 02, 2024 @11:47PM (#40243834)
Discontinuity at the border isn't a big issue compared to all locations in the country being wrong relative to the satellite view.

If Google cared enough, I'm sure they could find a solution - since Google doesn't operate in China, they don't really have to respect Chinese laws. But Google doesn't operate in China so they don't care that much and are presumably happy to leave things the way they are.

Also, keeping things the way they are keeps drawing attention to the issue, which is probably better than to try and cover it up.

Re:Every map of China is wrong by petesergeant on Friday May 03, 2024 @02:41AM (#40244852)
> since Google doesn't operate in China, they don't really have to respect Chinese laws

I suspect that in practice that’s not true; there are a lot of ways China could make life difficult for a big international tech company, from looking the other way regarding IP theft to arresting people associated with Google on spying charges when they’re there on personal trips

Re:Every map of China is wrong by rob74 on Friday May 03, 2024 @03:37AM (#40245183)
Also, Google currently doesn't really have a presence in China (and, despite some to-and-fro, currently doesn't intend to reenter the market either), so it's probably not that important to them to fix these issues. I wonder if they actively update the map or if it's stuck at some point in the past?

This isn't the first time they have done something like this, Germany was stuck with Street View imagery from 2008 (and limited to larger cities) until some time last year when they decided to finally start updating it again. This was due to some privacy hubbub back when StreetView was introduced that resulted in a law allowing building owners and/or inhabitants to request that their building be blurred on StreetView. Mind you, this law didn't forbid StreetView, but it looks like Google just lost interest, or decided to wait it out...

Re:Every map of China is wrong by disgruntledphd2 on Friday May 03, 2024 @04:35AM (#40245480)
Google probably make a lot of money from Chinese advertisers, so it's unlikely that they'd antagonise the Chinese government and risk losing that cash.
Re:Every map of China is wrong by oldherl on Friday May 03, 2024 @05:32AM (#40245783)
Wrong. There are Google offices in Beijing and Shanghai, where local software engineers are employed to work there. They develop software for global usage for Google. Google just stopped providing services in China.
Re:Every map of China is wrong by rob74 on Friday May 03, 2024 @06:01AM (#40245938)
Sorry - by "presence" I meant providing services in China, not having offices there.
Re:Every map of China is wrong by weinzierl on Friday May 03, 2024 @05:24AM (#40245740)
"since Google doesn't operate in China, they don't really have to respect Chinese laws"

Well, they buy the data from one of the few blessed Chinese companies, which is a form of doing business, and regardless what Chinese law says Google has most likely a contractual obligation not to convert the data. In other words, if they did convert the data they'd probably not get updates anymore.

Re:Every map of China is wrong by vitus on Friday May 03, 2024 @06:39AM (#40246165)
> since Google doesn't operate in China, they don't really have to respect Chinese laws.

Google search may not operate in China, but that doesn't mean that we have no business or service presence in China. For instance, from 2017 up until 2022, Google Translate was available in-country [0].

[0] https://apnews.com/article/technology-business-china-social-...

Re:Every map of China is wrong by computerfriend on Friday May 03, 2024 @06:46AM (#40246198)
A significant portion of Google's Hong Kong office is dedicated to business development in China.
Re:Every map of China is wrong by KTibow on Thursday May 02, 2024 @11:28PM (#40243744)
If Google didn't mind breaking the law they could use the previously mentioned, public code to convert the coordinates to the standard format. Could be that it wouldn't be worth it to implement that though.
Re:Every map of China is wrong by Kadin on Friday May 03, 2024 @02:04AM (#40244605)
That's only interesting to the extent that an organization has operations in China. Google was mostly ejected from the Chinese market years ago, I thought -- hence Baidu largely taking its place there.

It would be telling if despite that rejection, they were still open to taking direction from Beijing. Google at one point was fairly friendly with US DoD. Clearly the national loyalty of multinationals isn't guaranteed.

Re:Every map of China is wrong by yorwba on Friday May 03, 2024 @02:45AM (#40244872)
Google was not ejected from the Chinese market, they decided to remove most of their products after Gmail was hacked.

https://www.google.cn used to show censored search results, now it only has a link to https://www.google.com.hk , which is blocked because it lacks search result censorship. But Google could use the domain for something new in the future should they choose to.

In particular, Google Ads continue to be available: https://ads.google.cn They even offer WeChat customer service!

As long as they can keep the ad money flowing, Google will comply with all necessary laws and regulations.

Re:Every map of China is wrong by eqvinox on Friday May 03, 2024 @05:51AM (#40245881)
Maybe to be a bit more clear than the sibling comment, the fact that it could easily be done does not mean that it is legal (in China). Google may not want to burn all bridges with China. As a private or smaller entity you can totally do this and not care, but if you're large enough you get into political squabbles.
Re:Every map of China is wrong by toss1 on Thursday May 02, 2024 @09:19PM (#40243060)
Great point. This seems like low-intelligence autocratic bullshirt more than anything.

Does the CCP really think that the US military are going to use ordinary street msps to target their missiles and that this obfuscation will protect them from on-target hits? Sure, in WWII there were a few apocryphal instances of bad maps foiling an attack, but that was decades before mapping satellites.

As mentioned, it's been a long time since the US stopped limiting GPS resolution. This just makes CCP seem backward.

Re:Every map of China is wrong by SllX on Thursday May 02, 2024 @09:58PM (#40243243)
Not going to defend it, but I’ve always read it as an attempted countermeasure to unsophisticated espionage or domestic terrorism rather than an addition to their missile defense system. It’s not good enough to obfuscate targets when you can literally see and guide missiles from above their airspace, but it might trip up people operating on the street on their own or in small cells. America isn’t the PRC’s only adversary, and authoritarian dictatorships thrive only so far as they can control information and the movements of their subjects.
Re:Every map of China is wrong by wbl on Thursday May 02, 2024 @10:01PM (#40243260)
On the street relative addresses and way markers are enough. Think about the pre smartphone direction days.
Re:Every map of China is wrong by SllX on Thursday May 02, 2024 @10:03PM (#40243274)
Yeah. Like I said, not defending it, but it seems more plausible than trying to trip up foreign missile targeting by making Google Maps worse.
Re:Every map of China is wrong by vbezhenar on Friday May 03, 2024 @02:36AM (#40244821)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_bombing_of_the_C...

US allegedly used old map with wrong coordinates. Probably China knows well about US military tactics.

Re:Every map of China is wrong by nikisweeting on Friday May 03, 2024 @05:00AM (#40245602)
It's really not about missle/drone defense at all.

It's just an economic policy to help local mapping tech get good without international competition, and to control access to information by channeling it through domestic state-controlled enterprises.

Re:Every map of China is wrong by somat on Friday May 03, 2024 @08:28AM (#40246906)
There is the cautionary tale of the US invasion of Grenada. Where because no military maps of the country could be found in time. tourist maps with a military grid penned on were distributed to the troops. While we hope our much vaunted modern systems make this impossible, the reality is, that any large scale operation is a series of fuck ups while people figure out how to make it work.

https://www.militarytimes.com/veterans/military-history/2018...

Re:Every map of China is wrong by asoneth on Friday May 03, 2024 @09:29AM (#40247455)
> Does the CCP really think that the US military are going to use ordinary street msps to target their missiles and that this obfuscation will protect them from on-target hits?

In some cases using consumer-level street maps could make for more accurate targeting.

Many years ago I worked on command & control systems for a US military contractor. The mapping imagery our software used from military mapping providers were high resolution but often more out-of-date than commercial offerings. One example a warfighter showed me stuck with me because it was particularly embarrassing and egregious -- military imagery showed an area with a handful of shacks in the middle of the desert but Google's satellite imagery showed that it had become a sprawling town. Because of issues like that, army warfighters were forced to regularly cross-check with Google and/or Yahoo! maps when planning operations.

It is no longer an area I work in and I would expect that military imagery is now more up-to-date, but there are likely still datapoints uploaded to OpenStreetMap that are more timely and accurate than what government contractors provide. So I would not be surprised if there are still warfighters out there cross-checking with consumer mapping providers before ordering strikes.

Re:Every map of China is wrong by bombcar on Friday May 03, 2024 @10:06AM (#40247809)
The general "what is over there" type questions are often more up-to-date in commercial outfits - but the military can order a satellite pass of an area that they're particularly interested in, if they need it.

So in general the commercial stuff is better, but in the specifics the military stuff will come out on top, depending on what the mission is and how much anyone cares about it.

Re:Every map of China is wrong by rurounijones on Friday May 03, 2024 @12:33AM (#40244061)
> is there any advantage (military or otherwise) for China to persist with obfuscation?

I don't think so but it would be an embarrassment for the government to admit it no longer serves a use and such an action would be anathema to them.

Re:Every map of China is wrong by Propelloni on Friday May 03, 2024 @07:12AM (#40246341)
Why would it be an embarrassment to say something has outlived its usefulness?
Re:Every map of China is wrong by t-3 on Friday May 03, 2024 @07:23AM (#40246399)
Changing it could mean they made the wrong decision in the first place, which could make Important People lose face by possibly being at fault. Of course, they could try to present things in a different way, but potentially inviting criticism by rectifying mistakes isn't going to be looked upon warmly unless the people involved are all dead or out of favor.
Re:Every map of China is wrong by anonymoose33282 on Friday May 03, 2024 @10:01AM (#40247758)
It's also not exclusive to China/authoritarian countries. Plenty of European countries have de-facto decriminalized cannabis by rarely enforcing laws on possession (I'm reminded of how often I saw people openly smoking weed on the street in Berlin years ago), yet politicians don't want to be the one to stick their neck out and say that the war on drugs failed or cosign the use of a particular substance -- even if their electorate largely would agree with them.
Re:Every map of China is wrong by rurounijones on Wednesday May 08, 2024 @02:26AM (#40294949)
It would be an embarrassment if the reason it outlived its usefulness is because it got it got circumvented by hostile actors.
Re:Every map of China is wrong by bdd8f1df777b on Friday May 03, 2024 @06:52AM (#40246234)
Can anyone point me to an open source implementation converting GJC-02 to WGS-84? The next time I debate with my Chinese peers on why this obfuscation is stupid, I need a reference.

And to answer your question, it's because anyone proposing to break away from the current model will be accused of being a Western agent.

Re:Every map of China is wrong by jmprspret on Friday May 03, 2024 @06:55AM (#40246250)
Re:Every map of China is wrong by bdd8f1df777b on Friday May 03, 2024 @07:13AM (#40246343)
Re:Every map of China is wrong by jmprspret on Saturday May 04, 2024 @01:44AM (#40255189)
Re:Every map of China is wrong by RobotToaster on Friday May 03, 2024 @06:58AM (#40246259)
> is there any advantage (military or otherwise) for China to persist with obfuscation?

Probably just China suffering from the same problem most of the world has, boomers that don't really understand technology running the government.

> Is it just because of inertia that GJC-02 still exists?

That could also be part of the problem, the 14 companies that currently provide all mapping services in China, and everyone who uses their services, would have to convert to WGS-84. No doubt those companies will do everything they can to keep the law as it is.

Re:Every map of China is wrong by nicolas_t on Friday May 03, 2024 @11:05AM (#40248502)
> boomers that don't really understand technology running the government.

Back when the decision was made, most of the people running the government had studied engineering. A very common pattern in all industries in China are laws that ultimately lead to protectionism by forcing foreign companies to only work with local partners. This is exactly the consequence of this law. I'd be very surprised if that was not intended by law makers from the get go.

Re:Every map of China is wrong by luma on Friday May 03, 2024 @07:05AM (#40246303)
> is there any advantage (military or otherwise) for China to persist with obfuscation?

Standard issue Chinese protectionism, they do this with basically every industry. Create a problem and then only allow CCP-approved organizations to solve it.

Re:Every map of China is wrong by andy_ppp on Friday May 03, 2024 @08:16AM (#40246805)
I think it’s always the problem with a closed system, there’s no way for some better decision making to happen. The very idea that obfuscation of maps will help China be more secure or competitive is absolutely absurd.
Re:Every map of China is wrong by barrkel on Friday May 03, 2024 @08:21AM (#40246849)
It creates a legal fig leaf for the usual Chinese protectionism.