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Re:TSMC unveils 1.6nm process technology with backside power... by Workaccount2 on Thursday April 25, 2024 @10:01AM (#40157709)
Intel has a 1.4nm process in the pipeline for ~2027. They just took delivery on their first high NA EUV machine in order to start working on it.

Their gamble however is that they need to figure out DSA, a long storied technology that uses self-forming polymers to allow less light to sharply etch smaller features.

If they figure out DSA, they will likely be ahead of TSMC. If not, it will just be more very expensive languishing.

Re:TSMC unveils 1.6nm process technology with backside power... by Sysreq2 on Thursday April 25, 2024 @11:25AM (#40158672)
The nomenclature for microchip manufacturing left reality a couple generations ago. Intel’s 14A process is not a true 14A half-pitch. It’s kind of like how they started naming CPUs off “performance equivalents” instead of using raw clock speed. And this isn’t just Intel. TSMC, Samsung, everyone is doing half-pitch equivalent naming now a days.

This is the industry roadmap from 2022: https://irds.ieee.org/images/files/pdf/2022/2022IRDS_Litho.p... If you look at page 6 there is a nice table that kind of explains it.

Certain feature sizes have hit a point of diminishing returns, so they are finding new ways to increase performance. Each generation is better than the last but we have moved beyond simple shrinkage.

Comparing Intel’s 14A label to TSMCs 16A is meaningless without performance benchmarks. They are both just marketing terms. Like the Intel/AMD CPU wars. You can’t say one is better because the label says it’s faster. There’s so much other stuff to consider.

Re:TSMC unveils 1.6nm process technology with backside power... by confused_boner on Thursday April 25, 2024 @01:12PM (#40160249)
would performance per watt be the right way to benchmark?
Re:TSMC unveils 1.6nm process technology with backside power... by wtallis on Thursday April 25, 2024 @04:13PM (#40162415)
When comparing fab processes, you wouldn't want performance of a whole processor but rather the voltage vs frequency curves for the different transistor libraries offered by each fab process.
Re:TSMC unveils 1.6nm process technology with backside power... by futureshock on Thursday April 25, 2024 @02:03PM (#40160964)
Benchmarks are tricky because it all depends on workload and use case. If you are in a VR headset for example, it’s all about power envelope and GPU flops. If you are in a Desktop used for productivity it might be all about peak CPU performance.
Re:TSMC unveils 1.6nm process technology with backside power... by Workaccount2 on Thursday April 25, 2024 @03:23PM (#40161892)
"Likely better" doesn't come from 14A vs 16A. It comes from Intel using High NA-EUV vs TSMC using double pattern Low NA-EUV.

If Intel pulls off DSA, they will be using a newer generation of technology compared to TSMC using an optimized older generation. Could TSMC still make better chips? Maybe. But Intel will likely be better.

Re:TSMC unveils 1.6nm process technology with backside power... by tivert on Thursday April 25, 2024 @05:42PM (#40163404)
> If Intel pulls off DSA, they will be using a newer generation of technology compared to TSMC using an optimized older generation. Could TSMC still make better chips? Maybe. But Intel will likely be better.

Is Intel working on "an optimized older generation" as a backup plan? I don't follow semiconductors very closely, but my impression is the reason they're "behind" is they bet aggressively on an advanced technology that didn't pan out.

Re:TSMC unveils 1.6nm process technology with backside power... by Golden_Wind123 on Thursday April 25, 2024 @06:13PM (#40163729)
From what I remember the aprocyphal story is that Intel dragged their feet on adopting EUV and instead tried to push multi-patterning past it's reasonable limits.

If that's the actual root cause, then Intel's lagging is due to optimizing their balance sheets (investors like low capital expenditures) at the expense of their technology dominance.

Re:TSMC unveils 1.6nm process technology with backside power... by brennanpeterson on Thursday April 25, 2024 @08:19PM (#40164603)
I am not sure where that would come from. There is nothing about dsa that means this.

Dsa is one of many patterning assist technologies, just...an old one. Neat, but not 'new'. You use patterning assist to make smaller, more regular features, which is exactly what the 16a vs 18a refers to.

That has somewhat less to do with performance, which is tied as much to material, stress, and interface parameters. Nothing gets better from being smaller in the post dennard scaling era, the work of integration is making better devices anyway.

Patterning choices imply different consequences. For example,.a.double euv integration can take advantage of spacer assists to reduce ler and actually improve cdu even with a double expose. Selective etch can improve bias, spacer trickery can create uniquely small regular features that cannot be done with single patterns. Conversely, overlay trees get bushier, and via CD variance can cause horrific electrical variance. It is complicated, history dependent, and everything is on the developmental edge.

Re:TSMC unveils 1.6nm process technology with backside power... by Workaccount2 on Thursday April 25, 2024 @11:52PM (#40165808)
DSA is what is going to make it possible for Intel to compete at all. Without it, they are going to have fancy machines in fancy foundries that are too expensive to attract any customers.

To the best of my knowledge, DSA never made it out of the lab.

Re:TSMC unveils 1.6nm process technology with backside power... by 3abiton on Friday April 26, 2024 @05:32AM (#40167405)
But still, what is stopping others from also developing DSA? I am not sure the technology alone will be Intel's savior. They've been on the decline for a while, ever since they took a jab at Nvidia for releasing CUDA, they demonstrated a narrow vision, consistently, and now they're playing a catch up game.
Re:TSMC unveils 1.6nm process technology with backside power... by martinpw on Thursday April 25, 2024 @06:20PM (#40163787)
> This is the industry roadmap from 2022: https://irds.ieee.org/images/files/pdf/2022/2022IRDS_Litho.p...

Very interesting document - lots of numbers in there for real feature sizes that I had not seen before (Table LITH-1).

And this snippet was particularly striking:

Chip making in Taiwan already uses as much as 10% of the island’s electricity.

Re:TSMC unveils 1.6nm process technology with backside power... by kvemkon on Friday April 26, 2024 @09:08PM (#40176152)
> Intel’s 14A process is not a true 14A half-pitch. It’s kind of like how they started naming CPUs off “performance equivalents” instead of using raw clock speed.

Earlier it was AMD. The most prominent era since their Athlon XP CPUs turned out to be noticeably more performant per GHz than Intel in 2001.

Re:TSMC unveils 1.6nm process technology with backside power... by saganus on Thursday April 25, 2024 @10:08AM (#40157806)
Do you know the name of the company that produces the EUV machine? is it ASML?

It is my understanding that only ASML had cracked the EUV litography, but if there's another company out there, that would be an interesting development to watch.

Re:TSMC unveils 1.6nm process technology with backside power... by Rinzler89 on Thursday April 25, 2024 @11:04AM (#40158440)
>It is my understanding that only ASML had cracked the EUV litography

Ackshually, EUV was cracked by Sandia Labs research in the US, with EUV light sources built by Cymer in the US. ASML was the only one allowed to license the tech and integrate it into their steppers after they bough Cymer in 2013. Hence why US has veto rights to whom Dutch based ASML can sell their EUV steppers to, as in not to China, despite ow much ASML shareholders would like that extra Chinese money.

Re:TSMC unveils 1.6nm process technology with backside power... by ano-ther on Thursday April 25, 2024 @11:34AM (#40158788)
Re:TSMC unveils 1.6nm process technology with backside power... by EMCymatics on Thursday April 25, 2024 @01:09PM (#40160196)
Thanks for the source. I'm glad Bell labs pounced on the opportunity.
Re:TSMC unveils 1.6nm process technology with backside power... by oivey on Thursday April 25, 2024 @01:40PM (#40160668)
Pretty cool story of the National Lab system and the closest thing the US has to “government scientists” massively shaping the future.
Re:TSMC unveils 1.6nm process technology with backside power... by s3p on Thursday April 25, 2024 @11:53AM (#40159028)
They don't need anyone else's money. Intel has bought all of TSMC's EUV and High-NA EUV machines for the next several years.
Re:TSMC unveils 1.6nm process technology with backside power... by Rinzler89 on Thursday April 25, 2024 @12:12PM (#40159349)
>They don't need anyone else's money

There's no such thing in capitalism. Limited supply semi is(was) a bidding war, where China had a blank cheque and was willing to outbid everyone else to secure semi manufacturing supremacy.

Do you think Intel or TSMC could have scored all that ASML supply at that price if China would have been allowed to bid as well? ASML would have been able to score way higher market prices per stepper had China been allowed in the game, and therefore higher profits.

Do you think ASML shareholders hate higher profits or what? Nvidia sure didn't during the pandemic. You wanted a GPU? Great, it would cost you now 2x-3x the original MSRP because free market capitalism and the laws of supply and demand.

Re:TSMC unveils 1.6nm process technology with backside power... by saganus on Thursday April 25, 2024 @01:42PM (#40160693)
Did not know that. Thanks
Re:TSMC unveils 1.6nm process technology with backside power... by ahartmetz on Thursday April 25, 2024 @03:02PM (#40161650)
>EUV was cracked

More like it was started. There were a ton of gnarly problems left that took over ten years and billions of € to solve.

Producing a few flashes of EUV and getting a few photons on the target is relatively easy. Producing a lot of EUV for a long time and getting a significant fraction (...like 1%) of the photons on the target is very hard.

Re:TSMC unveils 1.6nm process technology with backside power... by hajile on Thursday April 25, 2024 @06:27PM (#40163860)
EUV was supposed to ship in the early 2000s and the work on it started in earnest the 90s. It turned out that EUV is way harder than anyone imagined. The only reason we did stuff like immersion DUV was because we couldn’t get EUV to work.
Re:TSMC unveils 1.6nm process technology with backside power... by singhrac on Thursday April 25, 2024 @10:33AM (#40158071)
It’s ASML.
Re:TSMC unveils 1.6nm process technology with backside power... by nabla9 on Thursday April 25, 2024 @01:37PM (#40160635)
Yes, and Intel was the first to install the first High-NA EUV machine from ASML, TWINSCAN EXE:5000 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PCtf1ONYMU

ps. Intel used to own 15% of ASML in 2012, now they own less than 2%.

Re:TSMC unveils 1.6nm process technology with backside power... by hackernudes on Thursday April 25, 2024 @10:41AM (#40158159)
DSA = Directed Self-Assembly
Re:TSMC unveils 1.6nm process technology with backside power... by dev1ycan on Thursday April 25, 2024 @11:12AM (#40158523)
Intel says a lot of things but until they put them out in the field I don't believe a word they say