Can you give a source that backs up your claim that the banned person here has shared any kind of hate.

A moderator on Vaxry's discord changed a transgender person's pronouns from "they/them" to "who/cares". Vaxry did nothing about it, and even supported this change, stating that the person was making too big a deal about their pronouns:

https://drewdevault.com/2023/09/17/Hyprland-toxicity.html

It may therefore be concluded that Vaxry condones transphobia and transphobic behavior, and therefore he doesn't have a place on FDO or any mainstream open source project.

That's immature and unthoughtful behaviour, but I fail to see "hate" or continued spreading of "hate", why a Wayland compositor uses Discord as a community forum given Discord is the gutter when it comes to online converse , who knows.

Keyword in your message is "may".

Discord is much, much more convenient than the historic alternatives like IRC or email. If you want a project to grow you have to meet prospective developers where they are; and in the 2020s that's X (Twitter), Mastodon, and Discord. Discord communities can be moderated to be safe and friendly... but Vaxry couldn't be arsed to do so because he's "based".

As to whether Vaxry was "really" promulgating hate... Refusing to acknowledge and respect a person's gender identity is transphobic.

Condoning this behavior (and victim-blaming the person who called it out) is transphobic.

When trans people and trans allies have positions of authority in an open-source community, public transphobes will get issued preemptive bans for the health of the community and the project. It is altogether fitting and proper that this be done.

Oh, and the fact that Vaxry slagged off Lyude publicly in his blog for good-faith enforcement of the code of conduct (as she has the authority and duty to do) just means that FreeDesktop would ban him again harder if they could.

> Oh, and the fact that Vaxry slagged off Lyude publicly in his blog for good-faith enforcement of the code of conduct

From what I see they both slagged each other.

Again though, I'm asking for where's the spreading of hate.

In case the cited example is not enough to count as "hate" for you (in which case, the code of conduct teams of major open source projects should take a good look at your behavior and determine whether to permit you to contribute to such projects), Lyude calls out a few specific instances in her opening email:

    I'd like to take a moment to specifically point out some examples that were brought to our attention of this behavior:
    * Hazing someone in your discord because they have pronouns in their bio
    * Speaking pretty bluntly against queer people and minorities at large
     - "at 15 he doesnt even know what he will be studying at uni and he already wanna go get AIDS?"
     - "I think this server's motto should be 'love guns, hate damn minorities'"

Source: https://blog.vaxry.net/resource/articleFDO/LyudeMails.pdf

But ultimately, I do not see your name on the FreeDesktop.org code of conduct committee... therefore, your opinion of what constitutes hate is completely irrelevant in this case. Code of Conduct committees are authorized to issue bans against anyone who, in their sole discretion, is an asshole specifically to avoid this kind of fruitless argument. The emphasis is on fostering a safe and welcoming community. Not in allowing freeze peach activists to sealion their way out of a ban.

This email is a very good demonstration on why you don't negotiate with terrorists or politburo representatives. They have gotten where they are exactly because they enjoy abusing the power given to them. Pleading your case before them is to just give them amusement.

They will spit on the work you carefully worked on throughout the years and celebrate that.

Thus, you don't negotiate. Instead, you go to their higher-ups and highlight that the company's resources are being misappropriated for petty squabbles and personal tilting at windmills.

Though sadly nowadays it has gotten way more difficult, because a greater portion of bureaucratic, community and HR positions in the companies are captured, so when the damage is noticed, it may already be too late.

Is this satire? Are we really at the level of policing thoughts?

So, whatever is posted publicly on "polite" forums about what was going on Hyprland discord is tip of the iceberg. See for yourself - https://imgur.com/a/6Po3Paq

Hyprland discord appears to be a cesspool and one fermented by Vaxry himself, trans hate or otherwise. Now some people are saying - they have improved (and others are saying they have not). But reading his blog posts and seeing current status, I am not optimistic. I mean you can't make this stuff up. Why use a opensource discord community for sharing porn? (which likely have minors).

So? Is xe a discord moderator? Are you?

Stay out of other people's business. What they say and do in their discord server has nothing to do with code contributions an owner of the server makes.

No. We are at the level of holding people accountable for their BEHAVIOR. Something that historically hasn't been done, resulting in a chilling effect on contributions from decent people, especially those from marginalized groups. That's changing.

You can fulminate about trans people all you like in the quiet of your own home, but if you harass or intimidate them in a publicly viewable way, there will be consequences. And when a code of conduct board member for a project approaches you and tells you you need to do better, any response other than "Yes, sir/ma'am/other, I will do better" is grounds for questioning whether you should be permitted to contribute further to the project.

You say this, but I don't think you're right.

Will the invasion of FOSS continue?

Never opposed by sane normal people?

Be ready for the masses to say "no" when you order them around.

A time when mentally ill men aren't given rule over all FOSS projects is coming.

Woman fights back!

Now read the first word of each line above :)

Normal people aren't raging transphobes and won't tolerate your presence as you make others feel unwelcome. You'll find that out eventually.

Normal people aren't hall monitors and don't really care whether you're offended, just about avoiding your censorship boot. You'll find that out eventually.

The more you talk the more people will avoid you and people like you. You are not holding people accountable you are having a power trip and enacting vengeance on perceived transgressions. He did not harass anyone and for past transgression he apologize but the CoC board member felt like he needed a power trip. People like you should be held far away from any position of power.

> No. We are at the level of holding people accountable for their BEHAVIOR

Someone has been held accountable for their behaviour and apologised, it doesn't mean they're forever in your debt and on a chain.

> When trans people and trans allies have positions of authority in an open-source community, public transphobes will get issued preemptive bans for the health of the community and the project. It is altogether fitting and proper that this be done.

It sounds like abuse of power

> Refusing to acknowledge and respect a person's gender identity is transphobic

He didn't do that though. He made fun of that person's obsession with pronouns. It is so simple, really - if you're a (trans/cis) woman, it's "she/her", if you're a (trans/cis) man, it's "he/him"; and if you think you need to shove your incredible uniqueness into everyone's conversation by coming up with something else, it's time to see a therapist for your narcissism.

> Refusing to acknowledge and respect a person's gender identity is transphobic

No that’s simply acknowledging biological reality.

We don’t affirm schizophrenia or anorexia. Why would you affirm other mental disorders?

Open source is so cooked. It will be a wonder if linux survives Torvalds' death.

Transgender contributors to open source existed before you were born and will continue to exist after you die.

Just to be clear.

But not with unlimited power to ban people for wrongthink.

When you make as many valuable contributions to the open source graphics stack as Lyude has, you might hold a position of significant authority within FDO or a similar project also.

Unless Lyude decides you need to be banned for something that happened in a different place multiple years ago, in which case your valuable contributions mean nothing and you're no longer allowed to contribute.

If you wish to study physics at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, and the dean finds out that you have a history of painting swastikas on buildings and decides to ban your ass from campus, it's not exactly an arbitrary or capricious decision.

Why would they ban a jew from jewish school?

Normal people don't think software projects should be like religious organizations or political clubs because making them such does nothing but harm the software.

Because they had a history of painting swastikas on buildings. Did you read the comment you replied to?

Right but that's only done by jews (see: "Hey Rabbi... Whatcha doin?"), which obviously the jews running the school would be aware of

The ban was for something that had just happened, which was the poor response to emails and the inflammatory blog post.

People keep trying to frame it like the ban was strictly for past actions from years ago, which I find disingenuous at worst and gullible at best.

IMO, the rude and unprompted initial email was "inflammatory." It was responded to in kind, which the sender did not take well.

If you're that upset about someone publishing a supposedly formal email that you sent, perhaps you should consider why that is instead of just knee-jerk banning the person to protect yourself.

> which was the poor response to emails

The email said it wasn't up for discussion.

Well gosh, why are you trying to discuss it now? Seems like a waste of time to me.

So, skipping the debate straight to death threats? Thank you for demonstration.

If you consider that a death threat, I am concerned for your mental health and/or reading comprehension skills.

Have a nice day, neonsunset.

Not the trans telling other people about their mental health lmaoooooooo

Will they? Transgender people cannot reproduce and tend to 41% fairly quickly. I bet the problem will solve itself within a decade at most.

It'll die before then, they're already putting him in a cage for not coddling people's feelings.

Already such flimsy material reasons to use or contribute to FOSS instead of using often better proprietary software. When you're endorsing the philosophy of reddit mod types by using FOSS and will get banned from contributing for being sane the negatives start to outweigh the positives

Vaxry has since responded to this and apologized numerous times. As he states many times in his blogposts, he ais apologetic for this incident I, like him, fail to see why this keeps on being brung up. The server and him have changed drastically, it's not very fair to judge a changed person on their past actions.

It's never enough for these people.

He has not made any meaningful apologies, and each example that might be construed as such is buried in qualifications and lengthy tirades about his persecution complex. Meanwhile, he continues to constantly post hateful tirades complaining about the fact that the free software community holds people accountable for their behavior. An apology without taking accountability for wrongdoing or fostering any meaningful change in behavior or attitude is worthless.

You in particular have been doing excellent work fostering this persecution complex in him.

> stating that the person was making too big a deal about their pronouns

Some people turn their pronouns into their personality, and it's effing annoying. IMO it's perfectly fine to make fun of such people. Being trans doesn't protect them from being made fun of, nor does it make the person making the joke a transphobic.

What do you find annoying about these people?

If you have to even list your pronouns, you do care too much about them.

It'll be wild to look back on all this when the spell finally breaks. Do you remember that one time people lost their shit over pronouns?

So, whatever is posted publicly on "polite" forums about what was going on Hyprland discord is tip of the iceberg. See for yourself - https://imgur.com/a/6Po3Paq

Changing someone's pronouns without their permissions seems like least of their offenses.

Hyprland discord appears to be a cesspool and one fermented by Vaxry himself, trans hate or otherwise. Now some people are saying - they have improved (and others are saying they have not). But reading his blog posts and seeing current status, I am not optimistic. I mean you can't make this stuff up. Why use a opensource discord community for sharing porn? (which likely have minors).

What am I supposed to be outraged about in the third screenshot? His disrespect for memory safety?

"rust is c++ for people with no ballz"

It's figurative ballz.

See: https://youtu.be/6i7a0cwyDDw

Start by reading here: https://drewdevault.com/2024/04/09/2024-04-09-FDO-conduct-en...

Remember to follow hyperlinks. They're there for a reason.

Only as long as SJWs are in charge of successful open source projects. When those that shun chopped-off CoCs outperform those infected by the cancer you will have no ability to censor

Of course. Any day now, I'm sure.

What do you think will happen when you ban everyone competent? You don't want to be the Boeing of FOSS

There's more than enough competent people who aren't asocial edgelords. Most people are happy letting other people live their lives and will in fact shit on people who don't allow others to do the same.

That's not hall monitoring, that's what the both of us think we're doing. Difference is one of us is shitting on people who would exclude others based on their identity, and the other is shitting on people who would shit on people who would shit on people based on their identity. You're not against shitting on people, you just want to be allowed to shit on other people without consequence. That's not how the world works. Talk shit, you get shown the door.

The reference to asociality and anti-sociality is rather ironic in the context of abuse of power and specifically going out of one’s way, as a paid employee, to harm someone working on OSS projects full-time for free.

Not really.

Want to reply to actual content or are you enjoying your nitpicking?

Since when pointing out the elephant in the room is "nitpicking"?

Since stripping the nitpicky word out detracts from the comment a negligible amount, since always. It's obnoxious word and tone policing that doesn't say anything.

To edgelords, any enforcement of CoC is abuse of power.

Please tell me more about how codes of conduct shouldn’t be a thing, 26 day old account with only flagged comments.

"You've been censored, why do you think censorship is bad?"

No, I'm happy to let people who I disagree with contribute to whatever code they want. You are not. Hence you are a hall monitor and I am not.

And you are happy to let scores of talented people walk by and drift away because you fail to understand that well-kept gardens die by pacifism.

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/tscc3e5eujrsEeFN4/well-kept-...

You're right that you're not a hall monitor though. You're worse, actually, because you are actually committing a good deal of the harassment of real people yourself. You have in these very comments. You're bullying people away and pretending that this is better than preventing someone from entering their own well-kept garden.

Yes, bullying people that want to censor others is good. As long as I'm not preventing them from contributing, there's nothing wrong with calling them and their views stupid. If they decide to contribute to a project I'm involved in they may, I do not care who they are. That's what's important

You (attempted to) tell a trans woman that they weren't a real woman. That's not anything to do with censorship or anything "noble," that's just transphobia and you're just a bully. Fuck off, dude.

I am not a trans woman. midnight2 ASS-umed my gender identity based on my stance on this issue.

They are still a transphobe though.

That's what I was attempting to get at with my (attempted to) but I def could have phrased that better.

Yes I am proudly transphobic. Oh no your declaration of heresy had no effect!

Me too. Or rather, I'm proudly in favour of supporting women and girls who need single-sex female-only spaces, proudly in objection to harmful "gender-affirming" cosmetic treatments for children, and stand proudly against the enforced and controlled speech that gender believers wish to impose upon all of society. If that makes me a "transphobe" then so be it.

My advice? Continue crying about it

A 'trans woman' is a type of man though. All of them are male, by definition.

Only if you have nonsensical and sexist beliefs like 'a woman is anyone who says they are a woman' or 'a woman is anyone who performs femininity' or 'a woman is anyone feminine enough for me to be sexually attracted to them' would you think that these men are women.

The rest of us live in the real world where we understand women to be female and men to be male.

Wild accusations of transphobia are losing their impact, these days it means more to the accuser than the accused. It's like a Christian calling an atheist 'heretic'. No big deal really.

We don't have to tolerate assholes even if they're really, really good.

But uhhh... Lyude, Alyssa Rosenzweig, Xe Iaso, Gankra, Ariadne Conill, Sage Sharp... There are an absurd number of highly competent trans developers who have made profoundly significant contributions to the open source ecosystem and justly ascended to leadership positions because of it. Right-wing edgelords? Not so much. In fact without trans people you wouldn't have a computer to type your right-wing screeds on: Lynn Conway invented VLSI and Sophie Wilson co-developed the ARM architecture. So yes, ban the fascist edgelords. Nothing of value will be lost.

Hacker culture is queer, furry, neurodiverse. Deal with it.