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Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by fwipsy on Friday April 05, 2024 @02:01AM (#39939108)
Nobody would take that job. If they did they would be hyper-cautious and never prosecute or sentence anyone. Better to just abolish the judicial system. Maybe you disagree, but I think that would be worse than the status quo.

There's always room to improve the system, but the way to do that is to make it resilient to individual failures, not by placing more pressure on the individual not to make mistakes.

Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by omgwtfbyobbq on Friday April 05, 2024 @03:29AM (#39939612)
I agree and disagree. We should improve the system to make it resilient to individual failures, and we should place more pressure on individuals in positions of power to not make mistakes.

I think a judge making a mistake this egregious should not be allowed to continue being a judge.

Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by lo_zamoyski on Friday April 05, 2024 @09:06AM (#39941885)
> We should improve the system to make it resilient to individual failures

This isn't a solution. It is a wish. Obviously, we all would like it to be the case that innocent people are never punished. But first, is the rate of false convictions of the innocent actually egregiously high? This article gives an example of one case, but it does not follow that we are facing high rates of false convictions, especially for serious crimes that carry serious penalties. Second, is there a way to reduce false convictions, especially in a way that doesn't comprise the system in some serious way?

> I think a judge making a mistake this egregious should not be allowed to continue being a judge.

Perhaps, perhaps not. You risk incentivizing behavior among judges that subverts the justice system.

Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by TheCleric on Friday April 05, 2024 @10:33AM (#39942871)
I think the best data we have of this in the US is the exoneration rate of death penalty convictions, which is startlingly high. A study from 2014 found it to be around 4% (https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1306417111).

4% may sound low to some, but when people's live are on the line that's terribly high. If a plane had a 4% failure rate it would be considered a colossal failure.

Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by wholinator2 on Friday April 05, 2024 @01:57PM (#39945241)
I know i have seen more stories lately about innocent people being freed after newly analyzed DNA evidence. I think a good question is, how would we know if someone were wrongly convicted? What tells are there that the person the judge and lawyers said was guilty, that's now in prison, what could tell us they are innocent. Presumably there are tons of guilty people proclaim innocence every day to try to get out of their consequences. What separates them? There could be catastrophically high rates of innocent convictions and I'm not confident we would be aware of that
Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by tzs on Friday April 05, 2024 @12:49PM (#39944559)
Wood's lawyer told the court that Woods did not have the mental capacity to stand trial. What do you think would have been the correct response from the judge?
Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by Aerroon on Friday April 05, 2024 @02:38AM (#39939325)
People from other jobs are potentially in jeopardy for negligence though. If a truck driver makes a mistake driving a truck they could very well go to prison.

Also, judges can be malicious too.

Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by michaelt on Friday April 05, 2024 @06:18AM (#39940714)
Right but truck drivers aren't constantly dealing with people who are lying to get themselves out of trouble.

And while all jobs include at least some element of dealing with people trying to deceive you, if I'm an embedded engineer dealing with a vendor overstating the low-temperature performance of their embedded compute module, the stakes are a lot lower.

Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by interactivecode on Friday April 05, 2024 @09:33AM (#39942171)
The point is that when your job has an "larger than normal" impact on the course of someone's life you should not be able to ignore that responsibility. Responsibility should be matched with equal sized accountability.

I'd rather have a system that occasionally let someone go free because of insufficient proof than occasionally have people be imprisoned when they are actually innocent.

Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by tacocataco on Sunday April 07, 2024 @04:44PM (#39963736)
"Right but truck drivers aren't constantly dealing with people who are lying to get themselves out of trouble."

What do you think the dash cams are for?

Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by Ekaros on Friday April 05, 2024 @02:04AM (#39939117)
So it would be better. No innocent would go to prison. Abolishing system is valid option. If it is clearly failing it is not worth keeping.
Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by slt2021 on Friday April 05, 2024 @02:08AM (#39939143)
you can move to the hoods in baltimore or st Louis or chicago where system is abolished, and see if you like it that way
Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by ruined on Friday April 05, 2024 @04:22AM (#39939936)
why do you say it's abolished there? it's my understanding that those areas are acutely suffering under the existing system.
Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by HeatrayEnjoyer on Friday April 05, 2024 @02:16AM (#39939202)
Do you think no one reading this hasn't grown up there? Think before you speak.
Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by kortilla on Friday April 05, 2024 @03:15AM (#39939541)
Nobody said that. Any the people who did grow up in unsafe areas generally don’t recommend it. It’s not a hot take.
Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by lo_zamoyski on Friday April 05, 2024 @08:58AM (#39941816)
The perfect is the enemy of the good. The notion that if something isn't perfect, it must be abolished is, simply put, ridiculous.

Trivially, if you have no criminal justice system, no innocent person would go to prison; it's as foolish as claiming there would be no poverty if there were no human beings. But crime would increase. The bulwark against those who do not live according to moral principles, who do not respect the law, would be removed, as such people respond only to the fear of punishment.

And the law and the justice system are also instructive. Part of their purpose is to teach. You will not teach justice without being just, and that entails punishment. The severity of the punishment is proportionate to the severity of the crime precisely because it signals and communicates to the perp that severity. It is feedback, hence instructive. A just person already accepts such punishment as just.

It is far better to focus on reform, but in order to do that, you first have to have a good understanding of what the law is all about. And I admit: our criminal justice system does need improvement and reform.

Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by fwipsy on Saturday April 06, 2024 @01:03AM (#39950125)
I believe that the system is currently working, in that it does less harm through wrongful/excessive punishments than would be done by criminals against innocent people in its absence. There's room for improvement, of course.
Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by HenryBemis on Friday April 05, 2024 @03:31AM (#39939622)
Going through the guy's 'CV' from the article, I guess one of the reasons the authorities never went "all the way to 11" to catch him, is that the harm he did was relatively 'small' - meaning of financial nature - he didn't physically hurt/murdered anyone. (I am not OK-ing what he did, I just think that if you got 100 killers out and about please catch them and the $200k guy will be caught sooner or later by some bureaucratic control).
Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by michaelmrose on Friday April 05, 2024 @04:15AM (#39939908)
His actions caused the real person to go to jail for 2 years.
Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by eastbound on Friday April 05, 2024 @03:14AM (#39939527)
People always apply for jobs. Even airplane pilot, where the pay isn’t as high as software developers, and where giant door-losing corporations put millions into making every accident pass as a pilot error, incurring a dozen years in jail. Heck, people even apply for the army, where, out of no fault of your own, you can die. They do this for the proper function of the society.

And therefore, for proper function of society:

- Judges should be exposed to penal jail sentences if an innocent goes to jail,

- Judges should also be exposed to penal jail sentences in case they release a criminal sooner than the maximum sentence and they commit a new crime.

When a criminal is released 18 times by judges, and they slaughter a dozen people on the 19th time, you know you’re in France. And that’s somewhere you don’t want to be.

Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by K0balt on Friday April 05, 2024 @06:05AM (#39940642)
Mmmmmmmmm idk. I’m with you on some liability for the conviction of innocent people, but that liability should also extend to juries.

As far as being penalised for not predicting the future actions of an individual person, not so much. That would effectively mean that every person would be sentenced and required to serve the maximum penalty for any violation, even though those maximums were intended to be doled out to only the most egregious offenders.

Perhaps much more granular and specific sentencing guidelines with objective qualifiers so that sentencing was more predictable?

Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by lo_zamoyski on Friday April 05, 2024 @09:18AM (#39941993)
> I’m with you on some liability for the conviction of innocent people, but that liability should also extend to juries.

You have to be careful here. Doing so can create perverse incentives that undermine justice. If a judge or a jury face such penalties, they will be inclined to reduce the penalty or feel compelled to find the defendant not guilty as a fearful precaution, even in cut and dry cases. And would you punish innocent jurors where unanimity is not required?

Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by LargeWu on Friday April 05, 2024 @12:06PM (#39944079)
I think a better way to phrase this is that judges should be punished in instances of gross negligence or malfeasance. An innocent person going to prison or early release in which a criminal commits another crime, on its own, does not necessarily imply this.
Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by Repulsion9513 on Friday April 05, 2024 @04:53AM (#39940171)
> would be hyper-cautious

That's a desirable effect. Your argument is the very reason the 5th amendment exists. Making it easier to find someone guilty is a BAD thing, not a good thing.

Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by kenjackson on Friday April 05, 2024 @08:14AM (#39941441)
The goal should be truth. Otherwise the easiest way to make it hard to find someone guilty is to make it only confessions under no duress are admissible.

And the hyper-cautious effect isn’t because of fear of getting it wrong. It’s fear of retaliation whether right or wrong.

Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by seanmcdirmid on Friday April 05, 2024 @09:19AM (#39942018)
No one would take the job first. Being a public servant is already pretty thankless and doesn’t pay very well. Second, if they did take the job, they wouldn’t do anything, since the consequences of being wrong are so high, why take the chance? Public opinion would then flip the other way, and they are either a wheat stalk flowing with the wind or they quit.
Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by fwipsy on Friday April 05, 2024 @05:44PM (#39947619)
I agree! I don't want it to be easier. But I think parent comment's proposal would result in almost no convictions, even in crystal clear cases. Please read my comment more carefully instead of assuming I'm saying something I'm not.
Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by vintermann on Friday April 05, 2024 @07:10AM (#39940955)
How about we bring back juries, big and truly random ones (at least 12 people, not haggled over, not filtered). Then give the jury some options to sanction judges and lawyers for blatant bullshit. It doesn't have to be harsher than firing them.

All legitimate government power is supposed to come from the people, I feel like that's often forgotten, especially when it comes to the least accountable branch of government.