News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Xzbot: Notes, honeypot, and exploit demo for the xz backd... by declan_roberts on Monday April 01, 2024 @02:03PM (#39897091)
One thing I notice about state-level espionage and backdoors. The USA seems to have an affinity for hardware interdiction as opposed to software backdoors. Hardware backdoors make sense since much of it passes through the USA.

Other countries such as Israel are playing the long-con with very well engineered, multi-year software backdoors. A much harder game to play.

Re:Xzbot: Notes, honeypot, and exploit demo for the xz backd... by bawolff on Monday April 01, 2024 @04:28PM (#39898851)
> Other countries such as Israel are playing the long-con with very well engineered, multi-year software backdoors

What is this in reference to?

Re:Xzbot: Notes, honeypot, and exploit demo for the xz backd... by Voultapher on Monday April 01, 2024 @04:58PM (#39899253)
NSO Group

They are an Israel based company, that sell zero-click RCEs for phones and more. Such malicious software was involved in the murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi.

Their exploits, developed in-house as well as presumably partially bought on the black market, are some of the most sophisticated exploits found in the wild, e.g. https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2021/12/a-deep-dive-i...

> JBIG2 doesn't have scripting capabilities, but when combined with a vulnerability, it does have the ability to emulate circuits of arbitrary logic gates operating on arbitrary memory. So why not just use that to build your own computer architecture and script that!? That's exactly what this exploit does. Using over 70,000 segment commands defining logical bit operations, they define a small computer architecture with features such as registers and a full 64-bit adder and comparator which they use to search memory and perform arithmetic operations. It's not as fast as Javascript, but it's fundamentally computationally equivalent.

Re:Xzbot: Notes, honeypot, and exploit demo for the xz backd... by bawolff on Monday April 01, 2024 @05:55PM (#39899846)
> that sell zero-click RCEs

Exactly my point. They do not sell backdoors.

Don't get me wrong, still icky, but definitely not a "very well engineered, multi-year software backdoors"

Re:Xzbot: Notes, honeypot, and exploit demo for the xz backd... by xvector on Monday April 01, 2024 @05:58PM (#39899886)
They implant backdoors and sell zero-click RCEs that exploit those backdoors.
Re:Xzbot: Notes, honeypot, and exploit demo for the xz backd... by bawolff on Monday April 01, 2024 @08:48PM (#39901166)
That's a pretty strong claim. Do you have any evidence they have done this?

And i mean, i'm genuinely curious. I don't think they would be above doing so if they had the opportunity, i just haven't heard of any instances where they were caught doing so.

Re:Xzbot: Notes, honeypot, and exploit demo for the xz backd... by db48x on Tuesday April 02, 2024 @12:13AM (#39902315)
I’m not sure why you’re making that point; the exploit we are talking about _is_ an RCE.
Re:Xzbot: Notes, honeypot, and exploit demo for the xz backd... by bawolff on Tuesday April 02, 2024 @12:38AM (#39902431)
The person i was replying to claimed that countries like usa rely on hardware modification while countries like israel rely on back-doors. This does not seem to be the case. Israel doesn't (or at least hasn't been caught) making backdoors, while the usa actually has (e.g. Dual_EG).

RCE is a broad category and includes many things. That said, while technically the liblzma thing is an RCE, supply chain attacks aren't really what most people mean when they talk about an RCE vulnerability.

Re:Xzbot: Notes, honeypot, and exploit demo for the xz backd... by hammock on Monday April 01, 2024 @04:49PM (#39899141)
Bob Maxwell (Ghislaine's father) sold backdoored software to corporations and governments all around the world, including US targets, on behalf of Israel's Mossad.

"The Maxwell-Mossad team steals spy software PROMIS from the United States, Mossad puts an undetectable trap door in it so Mossad can track the activities of anyone using it, then Maxwell sells it around the world (including back to the U.S. -- with the trap door)."

https://kclibrary.bibliocommons.com/v2/record/S120C257904

Re:Xzbot: Notes, honeypot, and exploit demo for the xz backd... by ginko on Monday April 01, 2024 @04:47PM (#39899118)
Probably Stuxnet.
Re:Xzbot: Notes, honeypot, and exploit demo for the xz backd... by bawolff on Monday April 01, 2024 @05:55PM (#39899851)
Stuxnet was not a backdoor.
Re:Xzbot: Notes, honeypot, and exploit demo for the xz backd... by markus92 on Monday April 01, 2024 @04:46PM (#39899112)
Stuxnet?
Re:Xzbot: Notes, honeypot, and exploit demo for the xz backd... by gowld on Monday April 01, 2024 @04:10PM (#39898596)
This goes back to WWII. USA solves problems with manufacturing and money. Europeans relatively lack both, so they solve problems with their brains.
Re:Xzbot: Notes, honeypot, and exploit demo for the xz backd... by hybridtupel on Monday April 01, 2024 @04:21PM (#39898756)
Israel is not in Europe
Re:Xzbot: Notes, honeypot, and exploit demo for the xz backd... by Alezz on Monday April 01, 2024 @05:11PM (#39899401)
The perfect definition of Europe is if they took part in the Eurovision Song Contest.
Re:Xzbot: Notes, honeypot, and exploit demo for the xz backd... by nmat on Monday April 01, 2024 @05:32PM (#39899625)
Australia participates in the Eurovision Song Contest.
Re:Xzbot: Notes, honeypot, and exploit demo for the xz backd... by willsmith72 on Monday April 01, 2024 @07:35PM (#39900669)
and now i get to identify as european in heated internet debates
Re:Xzbot: Notes, honeypot, and exploit demo for the xz backd... by jessekv on Tuesday April 02, 2024 @05:56PM (#39911291)
But they know they are "not the same".
Re:Xzbot: Notes, honeypot, and exploit demo for the xz backd... by wolverine876 on Monday April 01, 2024 @02:20PM (#39897316)
> The USA seems to have an affinity for hardware interdiction as opposed to software backdoors.

What are some examples?

Re:Xzbot: Notes, honeypot, and exploit demo for the xz backd... by AlexCoventry on Monday April 01, 2024 @02:37PM (#39897524)
Re:Xzbot: Notes, honeypot, and exploit demo for the xz backd... by acid__ on Monday April 01, 2024 @06:54PM (#39900357)
Be sure to check out the mentioned catalog. [1]

The NSA's capabilities back in 2008 were pretty astonishing: "RAGEMASTER" A $30 device that taps a VGA cable and transmits the contents of your screen to the NSA van sitting outside! Crazy stuff. Makes you wonder what they've built in the last 15 years.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANT_catalog

Re:Xzbot: Notes, honeypot, and exploit demo for the xz backd... by masklinn on Tuesday April 02, 2024 @01:08AM (#39902581)
Today you’ve got open access USB cable which can stream your shit out on WiFi, no doubt the NSA has worse.
Re:Xzbot: Notes, honeypot, and exploit demo for the xz backd... by nick238 on Monday April 01, 2024 @02:29PM (#39897421)
The Clipper chip? Not sure if that's what they had in mind. Nowadays it's maybe just how the NSA has rooms attached to backbone providers like https://theintercept.com/2018/06/25/att-internet-nsa-spy-hub...
Re:Xzbot: Notes, honeypot, and exploit demo for the xz backd... by greggsy on Monday April 01, 2024 @05:06PM (#39899336)
I mean, they’re just the high profile ones. China makes and ships a lot of hardware, and the US makes and ships a lot of software.
Re:Xzbot: Notes, honeypot, and exploit demo for the xz backd... by fpgaminer on Monday April 01, 2024 @05:11PM (#39899403)
My completely unexpert opinion, informed by listening to all the episodes of Darknet Diaries, agrees with this. US intelligence likes to just bully/bribe/blackmail the supply chain. They've got crypto chops, but I don't recall any terribly sophisticated implants like this one (except Stuxnet, which was likely Israel's work funded/assisted by the US). NK isn't terribly sophisticated, and their goal is money, so that doesn't match either. Russia is all over the place in terms of targets/sophistication/etc because of their laws (AFAIK it's legal for any citizen to wage cyberwarfare on anything and everything except domestically), but this feels a bit beyond anything I recall them accomplishing at a state level. Israeli organizations have a long history of highly sophisticated cyberwarfare (Stuxnet, NSO group, etc), and they're good about protecting their access to exploits. That seems to fit the best. That said, saying "Israeli organization" casts a wide net since it's such a boiling hotspot for cybersecurity professionals. Could be the work of the government, could be co-sponsored by the US, or could just be a group of smart people building another NSO group.
Re:Xzbot: Notes, honeypot, and exploit demo for the xz backd... by formerly_proven on Monday April 01, 2024 @06:15PM (#39900034)
> Russia is all over the place in terms of targets/sophistication/etc ... but this feels a bit beyond anything I recall them accomplishing at a state level.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triton_(malware) (https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/four-russian-government-emplo...)

Re:Xzbot: Notes, honeypot, and exploit demo for the xz backd... by croemer on Monday April 01, 2024 @07:11PM (#39900477)
Jia Tan's GitHub activity was mostly 10-18@UTC, consistent with Europe/Israel/Russia
Re:Xzbot: Notes, honeypot, and exploit demo for the xz backd... by Culonavirus on Monday April 01, 2024 @08:40PM (#39901124)
I like to think that the performance issue in the exploit was actually an exploit of an exploit, a counterintelligence act, by some "good samaritan" :D
Re:Xzbot: Notes, honeypot, and exploit demo for the xz backd... by jeroenhd on Monday April 01, 2024 @08:19PM (#39901005)
It's rather trivial to fake git commits.

Basing this stuff on email times (especially replies to emails sent that same day) would be more relevant. However. if this operation was pulled off with the precision and opsec that it seems to have been, I wouldn't be too surprised if whatever group is behind this attack would've sent over + funded a developer somewhere in a time zone of their choice.

No doubt any nation state is able to station someone in Russia/Israel/one of the n-eyes countries.

I doubt OSINT will figure out who is really behind this, but I'm sure governments will, soon enough. Whether or not they report the truth of their findings, and if one should trust the official reporting, is yet another tough question.

Re:Xzbot: Notes, honeypot, and exploit demo for the xz backd... by db48x on Tuesday April 02, 2024 @12:12AM (#39902308)
The git timestamps in the git commits probably were faked, but they implicate China. There were a handful of apparent slippups though, and if we take those timestamps to be correct then it looks like they were in eastern Europe (or possibly Finland, the Baltics, or the Mediterranean coast all the way down to Egypt). And if we instead assume that these timestamps are a second–level misdirection then there is a huge complexity penalty; my money is on the simpler answer (but not all my money; it’s not a sure bet).
Re:Xzbot: Notes, honeypot, and exploit demo for the xz backd... by croemer on Tuesday April 02, 2024 @08:57AM (#39905215)
I'm basing this on Github's activity archive as queried through Clickhouse - which is much harder to fake than git commits: https://play.clickhouse.com/play?user=play#U0VMRUNUCiAgY3JlY...

See the writeup here: https://til.simonwillison.net/clickhouse/github-explorer

Re:Xzbot: Notes, honeypot, and exploit demo for the xz backd... by McBun on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @03:34PM (#39921999)
Thank you for this tool.

That activity look 100% to be from a paid employee to me. He works in the morning and does git maintenance in the afternoon like clockwork... Between 12 and 18... It might also have been multiple employee.

He didn't work on Christmas or new year eve which is extremely telling...

Re:Xzbot: Notes, honeypot, and exploit demo for the xz backd... by int_19h on Wednesday April 03, 2024 @06:20PM (#39923996)
The last commit in December is on the 21st, so I'm not sure how much can be read into it.

But note that he comes back next year on the 5th, then disappears for 6th and 7th, and comes back at 8th. 7th is the old-style Eastern Orthodox Christmas, as celebrated in e.g. Russia, Serbia, and Georgia, and 6th is therefore the Christmas Eve. Although in Russia official holidays are the entire week from January, 1 to January, 8 inclusive... still, for this kind of work I wouldn't expect them to stick to the letter of the law there.

Re:Xzbot: Notes, honeypot, and exploit demo for the xz backd... by klabb3 on Tuesday April 02, 2024 @12:52AM (#39902498)
Thanks, i was wondering about this since day 0 and was too lazy to look it up. Yes it can be spoofed, but I imagine a good chunk of day-to-day is work is semi-interactive, which would make it preferable to have the attacker be in the same tz as the victims. Anyone know what tz Lasse was at? If not (eg he’s in the US), then I’d say Occam’s razor that the attacker is working those UTC 10-18 office hours without extra steps. Tz proves nothing and for a 3y low-intensity operation I’d just assume the attacker won’t introduce that much friction only to mislead. I’m sure there are much stronger signals in the investigation work that’s going on now. Unfortunately, given the hush-hush-by-default nature of our beloved intel agencies, we’ll probably never know.
Re:Xzbot: Notes, honeypot, and exploit demo for the xz backd... by croemer on Tuesday April 02, 2024 @09:17AM (#39905402)
I don't think Github activity logs can be spoofed - of course activity can consciously been done in a certain time zone, but that's different from spoofing timestamps in git commits. See https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=39905376 for the full histogram, it shows a rather narrow time distribution between 12-16 UTC - not really natural at all if you ask me.
Re:Xzbot: Notes, honeypot, and exploit demo for the xz backd... by croemer on Tuesday April 02, 2024 @09:19AM (#39905430)
Here you can see Larzhu's activity by time of day, looks much more natural than JiaT75's: https://play.clickhouse.com/play?user=play#U0VMRUNUCiBmb3JtY...