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Re:Advances in semiconductors are feeding the AI boom by layer8 on Thursday March 28, 2024 @12:34PM (#39853918)
Ignoring for the moment that transistors and synapses are very different in their function, the current in a CPU transistor is in the milliampere range, whereas in the ion channels of a synapse it is in the picoampere range. The voltage differs by roughly a factor of ten. So the wattage differs by a factor of 10^10.

One important reason for the difference in current is that transistors need to reliably switch between two reliably distinguishable states, which requires a comparatively high current, whereas synapses are very analog in nature. It may not be possible to reach the brain’s efficiency with deterministic binary logic.

Re:Advances in semiconductors are feeding the AI boom by fsckboy on Thursday March 28, 2024 @02:04PM (#39855245)
>the current in a CPU transistor is in the milliampere range

? you sure about that? in a single transistor? over what time period, more than nanoseconds? milliamps is huge, and there are millions of transistors on a single chip these days, and with voltage drops of ... 3V? .7V? you're talking major power. FETs should be operating on field more than flow, though there is some capacitive charge/discharge.

Re:Advances in semiconductors are feeding the AI boom by Ductapemaster on Thursday March 28, 2024 @02:17PM (#39855432)
Single transistors in modern processes switch currents orders of magnitude lower than milliamps. More like micro- to picoamps. There's leakage to account for too as features get smaller and smaller due to tunneling and other effects, but still in aggregate the current per transistor is tiny.

Also the transistors are working at 1V or lower, but as you say they are FETs and don't have the same Vbe drop as a BJT.

Re:Advances in semiconductors are feeding the AI boom by layer8 on Thursday March 28, 2024 @03:29PM (#39856298)
You are right, I mixed this up. If you take a CPU running at 100 W with 10 billion transistors (not quite realistically assumed to all be wired in parallel) at 1 V, you would get an average of 0.01 microamps. So the factor would reduce to roughly 10^5.
Re:Advances in semiconductors are feeding the AI boom by nuancebydefault on Thursday March 28, 2024 @05:51PM (#39857794)
Wait a minute, a lot of those transistors are switching the same currents since they are in series. Also, FETs only draw most current while switching, so in between switches there's almost no flow of electrons. So in fact you cannot calculate things that way.
Re:Advances in semiconductors are feeding the AI boom by layer8 on Thursday March 28, 2024 @06:21PM (#39858080)
Yes, as I said the parallel assumption is not quite realistic, and the number is an average, covering all states a transistor may be in. So it amounts to a rough lower bound for when a transistor is switching.
Re:Advances in semiconductors are feeding the AI boom by TRDRVR on Thursday March 28, 2024 @12:45PM (#39854100)
Thank you for this - the name neural networks has made a whole generation of people forget that they have an endocrine system.

We know things like sleep, hunger, fear, and stress all impact how we think, yet people want to still build this mental model that synapses are just dot products that either reach an activation threshold or don't.

Re:Advances in semiconductors are feeding the AI boom by cosmojg on Thursday March 28, 2024 @04:04PM (#39856666)
Fortunately for academics looking for a new start in industry, this widespread misunderstanding has made it only far too easy to transition from a slow-paced career in computational neuroscience to an overwhelmingly lucrative one in machine learning!
Re:Advances in semiconductors are feeding the AI boom by __loam on Thursday March 28, 2024 @02:27PM (#39855565)
People will spout off about how machine learning is based on the brain while having no idea how the brain works.
Re:Advances in semiconductors are feeding the AI boom by gary_0 on Thursday March 28, 2024 @04:40PM (#39857050)
It is based on the brain, but only in the loosest possible terms; ML is a cargo cult of biology. It's kind of surprising that it works at all.
Re:Advances in semiconductors are feeding the AI boom by Borg3 on Thursday March 28, 2024 @05:35PM (#39857601)
It works because well, its actually pretty primitive at its core. Whole learning process is actually pretty brutal. Doing millions of interations w/ random (and semi-random) adjustments.
Re:Advances in semiconductors are feeding the AI boom by Terr_ on Friday March 29, 2024 @12:32AM (#39860731)
I think I've fallen into the "it's just a very fancy kind of lossy compression" camp.
Re:Advances in semiconductors are feeding the AI boom by eli_gottlieb on Thursday March 28, 2024 @10:58PM (#39860154)
Honestly once you understand maximum-likelihood estimation, empirical risk minimization, automatic differentiation, and stochastic gradient descent, it's not that much of a surprise it works.
Re:Advances in semiconductors are feeding the AI boom by goatlover on Thursday March 28, 2024 @06:18PM (#39858041)
There have been people on HN arguing that the human brain is a biological LLM, because they can't think of any other way it could work, as if we evolved to generate the next token, instead of fitness as organisms in the real world. Where things like eating, sleeping, shelter, avoiding danger, social bonds, reproduction and child rearing are important. Things that require a body.
Re:Advances in semiconductors are feeding the AI boom by kungito on Thursday March 28, 2024 @06:41PM (#39858274)
I'm one of those people. To me those things only sounded like a different prompt. Priorities set for the llm
Re:Advances in semiconductors are feeding the AI boom by TRDRVR on Thursday March 28, 2024 @07:00PM (#39858456)
Here's the hubris of thinking that way:

I would imagine the baseline assumption of your thinking is that things like sleep and emotions are a 'bug' in terms of cognition (or at the very least, 'prompts' that are optional).

Said differently, the assumption is that with the right engineer, you could reach human-parity cognition with a model that doesn't sleep or feel emotions (after all what's the point of an LLM if it gets tired and doesn't want to answer your questions sometimes? Or even worse knowingly deceives you because it is mad at you or prejudiced against you).

The problem with that assumption is that as far as we can tell, every being with even the slightest amount of cognition sleeps in some form and has something akin to emotional states. As far as we can prove, sleep and emotions are necessary preconditions to cognition.

A worldview where the 'good' parts of the brain (reasoning and logic) are replicated in LLM but the 'bad' parts (sleep, hunger, emotions, etc.) are not is likely an incomplete model.

Re:Advances in semiconductors are feeding the AI boom by kelseyfrog on Thursday March 28, 2024 @11:32PM (#39860407)
Do airplanes need sleep because they fly like birds who also require sleep?
Re:Advances in semiconductors are feeding the AI boom by goatlover on Friday March 29, 2024 @12:53AM (#39860847)
Birds flap their wings and maneuver differently. They don't fly the same way.
Re:Advances in semiconductors are feeding the AI boom by sorokod on Friday March 29, 2024 @07:04AM (#39862622)
They do need scheduled maintenance.
Re:Advances in semiconductors are feeding the AI boom by TRDRVR on Friday March 29, 2024 @05:25PM (#39869194)
Ah a very fun 'snippy' question that just proves my point further. Thank you.

No airplanes do not sleep. That's part of why their flying is fundamentally different than birds'.

You'll likely also notice that birds flap their wings while planes use jet engines and fixed wings.

My entire point is that it is foolish to imagine airplanes as mechanical birds, since they are in fact completely different and require their own mental models to understand.

This is analogous to LLMs. They do something completely different than what our brains do and require their own mental models in order to understand them completely.

Re:Advances in semiconductors are feeding the AI boom by kelseyfrog on Friday March 29, 2024 @08:30PM (#39870590)
I'm reluctant to ask, but how do ornithopters fit into a sleep paradigm?
Re:Advances in semiconductors are feeding the AI boom by TRDRVR on Tuesday April 02, 2024 @02:05PM (#39908890)
Great follow up!

Ornithopters are designed by humans who sleep - the complex computers needed to make them work replicate things humans told them to do, right?

It is a very incomplete model of an ornithopter to not include the human.

Re:Advances in semiconductors are feeding the AI boom by TRDRVR on Friday March 29, 2024 @05:38PM (#39869302)
Here, it's actually fun to respond to your comment in another way, so let's try this out:

Yes, sleep is in fact a prerequisite to planes flying. We have very strict laws about it actually. Most planes are only able to fly because a human (who does sleep) is piloting it.

The drones and other vehicles that can fly without pilots were still programmed by a person (who also needed sleep) FWIW.

Re:Advances in semiconductors are feeding the AI boom by goatlover on Thursday March 28, 2024 @07:10PM (#39858554)
Isn’t that taken the analogy too literally? You’re saying nature is promoting humans to generate the next token to be outputted? What about all the other organisms that don’t have language? How do you distinguish nature prompts from nature training datasets? What makes you think nature is tokenized? What makes you think language generation is fundamental to biology?
Re:Advances in semiconductors are feeding the AI boom by Terr_ on Friday March 29, 2024 @12:30AM (#39860724)
It's also frustrating because LLMs aren't even the only kind of AI/ML out there, they're just the kind currently getting investment and headlines.
Re:Advances in semiconductors are feeding the AI boom by omikun on Thursday March 28, 2024 @03:01PM (#39855960)
A single precision flop is in the order of pJ. [1] A transistor would be much less.

[1] https://arxiv.org/pdf/1809.09206.pdf

Re:Advances in semiconductors are feeding the AI boom by philipkglass on Thursday March 28, 2024 @02:01PM (#39855196)
Ignoring for the moment that transistors and synapses are very different in their function, the current in a CPU transistor is in the milliampere range...

That seems implausible. Apple's M2 has 20 billion transistors and draws 15 watts at full power [1]. Even assuming that 90% of those transistors are for cache and not logic, that would still be 2 billion logic transistors * 1 milliampere = 2 million amperes at full power. That would imply a voltage of 7.5 microvolts, which is far too low for silicon transistors.

[1] https://www.anandtech.com/show/17431/apple-announces-m2-soc-...

Re:Advances in semiconductors are feeding the AI boom by whiplash451 on Thursday March 28, 2024 @04:14PM (#39856745)
How do you get to 10^10? I might be missing a fundamental of physics here (asking genuinely).
Re:Advances in semiconductors are feeding the AI boom by jvanderbot on Thursday March 28, 2024 @02:29PM (#39855582)
A simple discretization of the various levels of signal at each input/output, a discretization to handle time-of-propagation (which is almost surely part of the computation just because it _can be_ and nature probably hijacks all mechanisms), and a further discretization to handle the various serum levels in the brain, which are either inputs, outputs, or probably both.

Just add a factor 2^D transistors for each original "brain transistor" and re-run your hardware. Hope field effects don't count, and cross your fingers that neurons are idempotent!

Easy! /s

Modelling an analog system in digital will always have a combinatorial curse of dimensionality. Modelling a biological system is so insanely complex I can't even begin to think about it.

Re:Advances in semiconductors are feeding the AI boom by CuriouslyC on Thursday March 28, 2024 @04:44PM (#39857095)
The more of our logic we can implement with addition, the more can be offloaded to noisy analog systems with approximate computing. It would be funny if model temperature stopped being metaphorical.
Re:Advances in semiconductors are feeding the AI boom by eli_gottlieb on Thursday March 28, 2024 @10:52PM (#39860106)
Synapses are very analog, but then the neuronal soma (cell body) and axon are pretty pulsatile again. A spike is fired or it isn't!