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Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by gnicholas on Wednesday March 13, 2024 @02:48PM (#39695712)
How much more energy can these large blades produce that it's worth inventing a new kind of airplane (and apparently a purpose-built airstrip for every destination) to ship them? And if they ever break and need fixing, do you have to go pick them up, take them in for repair, and bring them back?

If they've raised $100M+, I assume these questions have been asked, but I'm just generally skeptical that the math makes sense.

Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by vipshek on Wednesday March 13, 2024 @03:06PM (#39695950)
From the article:

> Radia estimates the larger turbines could reduce the cost of energy by up to 35% and increase the consistency of power generation by 20% compared with today’s onshore turbines.

Not sure what that translates to in terms of energy output over time.

As for the sibling "Why not airships?" question, the article says:

> Blimps can’t land in windy conditions. Helicopters are more costly than airplanes, and flying with a dangling blade designed to catch wind would prove complex and dangerous.

Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by gnicholas on Wednesday March 13, 2024 @03:12PM (#39696014)
Does this cost reduction factor in the cost of making a new airplane company? If they transport a million blades then the cost per blade is not that high. But if they only make 10,000 blades then it becomes more of a factor (especially if the useful life turns out to be not as long as predicted).
Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by youngtaff on Thursday March 14, 2024 @04:33AM (#39701597)
Plus how long does each turbine need to operate for before it mitigates the CO2 and other pollutants produced by building and operating the plane?
Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by Retric on Friday March 15, 2024 @11:32AM (#39716880)
If they move 3,000 blades for ~15MW turbines then a 20% improvement in capacity factor alone is worth 3,066,000 metric tons of CO2 year. Edit: (Ops 10Mw * 1,000 turbines * 0.5 tons from natural gas /MW * .35% capacity factor * 20% improvement * 24 * 365 hours, coal is roughly double that.)

By comparison a commercial jet takes ~20 years to emit 1 million tons of CO2. https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/boeing-je...

Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by myrmidon on Friday March 15, 2024 @11:47AM (#39717058)
Assuming: 500tons of fuel for the transport of the 3 blades (comparison: AN225 with higher max payload weight guzzled ~15tons/hour).

You could have used that energy to produce 500000kg * 40MJ/kg * 40% = 8TJ. The turbine would need ~40d to produce this (~25% capacity factor, 10MW nameplate power):

8TJ / (10[MW] * 25% * 3600[s/h] * 24[h/d])

Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by bunabhucan on Friday March 15, 2024 @11:26PM (#39723114)
The existing option is semi trucks traveling in daylight with additional vehicles supervising and special self steering trailers, local PD stopping traffic if necessary, new roads being built or existing ones improved.
Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by threeseed on Saturday March 16, 2024 @01:32AM (#39723617)
From their website:

"Simultaneously, Radia is developing a world-class portfolio of wind energy projects to leverage this solution"

So they just need to deliver one of those projects for the carbon to be offset.

Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by adrianN on Saturday March 16, 2024 @03:58AM (#39724102)
Upping the consistency of power generation by 20% has a huge downstream impact because it reduces the cost of storage and transmission.
Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by davedx on Saturday March 16, 2024 @08:15AM (#39725236)
Underrated comment. Grids need less upgrades, less congestion, less curtailment of other renewables can add up to billions in savings for a country
Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by davedx on Saturday March 16, 2024 @08:14AM (#39725220)
It means more consistent energy output, higher “capacity factors”. It will always be intermittent but taller turbines reduces the intermittency
Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by biomcgary on Wednesday March 13, 2024 @03:00PM (#39695863)
Why not an airship at this scale?
Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by karmakaze on Wednesday March 13, 2024 @03:35PM (#39696334)
I was thinking the same, like the Hybrid Air Vehicles (HAV) Airlander 10.
Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by joak on Thursday March 14, 2024 @05:14AM (#39701787)
They cannot land when it's windy
Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by usrusr on Saturday March 16, 2024 @02:38AM (#39723820)
When wind is faster than their maximum speed. Chances are they can take much higher wind speed than the elaborate truck ballet required to transport huge blades on the ground. Wind turbine installation isn't exactly an all-weather project as is.
Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by simne on Thursday March 14, 2024 @11:26AM (#39705234)
Support become very costly, because need very large hangars and special machines for large craft (Ukrainian Ruslans and Mriya was designed as off-road, and carry few tons of special equipment onboard, which is not good for economy). Second problem landing strips, which also are limited (limited length, limited width).

As example, for small size and narrow-body planes, in US there are more than 6000 private airstrips, so they could nearly substitute automobiles, but if need landing strip for something large, they are only at very large airports and in special places, like military airbases and space centers, so just few for whole country.

In the world, things are worse than in US, so most Antonov planes was designed to fly from ground road, and carry special equipment on board, but this made them less effective.

Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by almostnormal on Saturday March 16, 2024 @05:39AM (#39724500)
> Second problem landing strips, which also are limited (limited length, limited width).

Direct-to-tower delivery. Removes the need for transport on the ground for the last miles and the need for a crane.

Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by simne on Saturday March 16, 2024 @03:43PM (#39728863)
That is problem. You sure could make tiny strip (10m x 250m), nearly everywhere, even at the center of old city.

But large planes need much larger strips, for example typical international airport have strip 30m x 1600m.

Why so much difference, because economy. It is much more effective to make large strips in large cities (or near them), than to make off-road planes (google Bush plane) which will have much more expensive cost to transport weight-kilometer or passenger-kilometer.

From where become expensiveness. Well, most effective planes flight fast at high atmosphere (because speed of sound is significantly higher in low pressure), but they also have high landing speed, and unfortunately, brakes (very similar to automobile) need to dissipate all energy from speed, calculated from simple formula (m*v^2)/2, so with double speed have quadruple energy.

Energy dissipation from plane brakes is really big problem, so big that nearly all big planes have special "thermo-accumulating" weights inside landing gear, which considered to heat fast when braking and then few hours dissipate heat. Extreme example was Concord, on which brakes cooling about 11 hours after landing. Bush planes are slow, so they don't have this problem.

Second problem, because of engineering considerations (physics), large planes usually are tall, but not too wide inside, and very big loads are just considered to transport in "horseman" configuration, mean load placed on top of plane, so need special crane to load/unload.

Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by almostnormal on Saturday March 16, 2024 @08:42PM (#39730801)
GGGP was suggesting use of an airship.
Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by simne on Saturday March 16, 2024 @10:58PM (#39731536)
And who will build network of hangars for it? Aliens?
Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by baseline-shift on Wednesday March 13, 2024 @05:27PM (#39697760)
We are headed for 20 MW now, so a wind farm with five 20 MW turbines is a typical size for many gas power plants; 100 MW.

In the EU, there's testing facilities that are checking these at this 20 MW size now. Commercially at this point there's up to 17 MW operating in the North Sea.

Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by noneeeed on Friday March 15, 2024 @11:44AM (#39717003)
That's awesome. I hadn't realised we were close to 20MW ones now. The Halide ones being installed in the North Sea are monsters, amazing engineering.

I'm pretty pessimistic about climate change. But the way wind and solar just keep getting cheaper and better gives me a certain amount of hope.

Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by konschubert on Saturday March 16, 2024 @05:32AM (#39724464)
Solar keeps getting cheaper. Wind has kind of hit a roadblock - probably because it can’t be made in China.
Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by konschubert on Saturday March 16, 2024 @05:33AM (#39724466)
Solar keeps getting cheaper. Wind has kind of hit a roadblock - there is less innovation coming China than for solar.
Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by _ph_ on Saturday March 16, 2024 @07:55AM (#39725088)
Very different things. There is basically only one solar panel size on the market. Which starts at $100. Making large solar installations means just getting more panels. This is great for cost reduction, as that most of the times goes along with ramping up production numbers. The production of the single panel doesn't get more complex though.

Wind energy is also getting constantly cheaper, both due to cost reductions and due to making the wind generators larger and thus more efficient. Onshore wind energy is the cheapest in Middle Europe and if they could grow further, costs would go down accordingly.

But even if production can deliver, getting the blades gets more and more difficult, so here we area.

Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by davedx on Saturday March 16, 2024 @08:06AM (#39725169)
Wind is just different too. There are subtle advantages to scaling up wind: fixed costs increase but capacity factors do too (taller turbines means they’re turning more % due to more consistent wind speeds at higher altitudes).
Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by jl6 on Saturday March 16, 2024 @04:21AM (#39724201)
Just remember gas plants run continuously at the rated capacity whereas wind capacity factor is 30-40%, so a like for like comparison probably involves storage.
Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by Tade0 on Saturday March 16, 2024 @04:54AM (#39724318)
At this scale it's more like 60%+.

At 150m above ground where there rotor hub sits wind blows all the time.

Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by Arrath on Wednesday March 13, 2024 @05:43PM (#39697919)
> (and apparently a purpose-built airstrip for every destination)

Having built a 64-turbine windfarm back in the 2000's (so they were likely smaller than they are now) a goodly chunk of the work involved was site prep in building access roads traversable by the cranes required to set everything up, and the massively over-length trailers carrying the blades. Things like maximum grade, radius of the turns, breakover angle etc were hugely important.

Grading out and paving an airstrip when you already have an appreciable contingent of heavy earthworking equipment onsite and, likely, also a concrete batch plant to reduce the travel time for the concrete you're using for the foundations really isn't too big of a stretch!

Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by opwieurposiu on Wednesday March 13, 2024 @06:48PM (#39698522)
Their website says it can land on a packed dirt airstrip, 6000ft long. I wonder if they would park all the nearby windmills during takeoff/landing, to avoid creating swirly air.
Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by throwup238 on Friday March 15, 2024 @11:51AM (#39717113)
Turbulence created by the blades is negligible to a large plane. Planes this big can easily fly into hurricanes [1].

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_WP-3D_Orion

Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by CPLX on Friday March 15, 2024 @10:41PM (#39722873)
There aren't any planes that can fly easily into hurricanes.
Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by lovemenot on Saturday March 16, 2024 @12:55AM (#39723493)
All planes can easily fly into a hurricane.
Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by ultrarunner on Saturday March 16, 2024 @02:13AM (#39723751)
At this size the plane's swirly air (wake turbulence) would be a more significant concern
Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by HPsquared on Monday March 25, 2024 @10:00AM (#39816404)
Especially as it'll be a "large, light" aircraft. Might be more susceptible than a "small, dense" one.
Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by wolverine876 on Saturday March 16, 2024 @03:26AM (#39723978)
Why can't the blades be broken down into managable segments and assembled on-site? The military folds and unfolds airplane wings all the time on aircraft carriers.

(It's an honest question; you must have thought of it, of course.)

Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by adrianN on Saturday March 16, 2024 @03:56AM (#39724091)
The tips of the blades travel close to the speed of sound. The blades are quite difficult to manufacture as it is, it's a big challenge to add intentional weak points and/or weight by making them foldable.
Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by wolverine876 on Saturday March 16, 2024 @05:09PM (#39729477)
The tips of fighter aircraft wings travel faster than the speed of sound, deal with far more stress (from turns, explosions, etc.), and the wings I expect are more complex and difficult to manufacture - but they fold.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but by themselves those factors aren't entirely convincing to me.

(Also, the wings need to fold and unfold repeatedly over their lifetime; the blades could just be, in theory, shipped in pieces and then assembled once).

Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by HPsquared on Friday March 22, 2024 @08:20PM (#39796212)
Mega budgets and maintenance schedules.
Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by alexvoda on Monday March 25, 2024 @09:54AM (#39816334)
Fighter aircraft also have a very short lifespan measured in thousands of flight hours and enjoy constant maintenance compared to a wind turbine expected to work 24/7 for decades with minimal maintenance.
Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by 7952 on Saturday March 16, 2024 @08:03AM (#39725148)
Landing strip construction could work well as part of overhead line construction. You have an existing design that favours long straight lines and a need to build a haul road. Although the scenario where this was actually useful might be fairly unique.
Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by AtlasBarfed on Friday March 15, 2024 @11:55AM (#39717166)
The alt energy transition needs some SERIOUSLY LARGE scale. I wish I had a super-caps lock for that.

The fact that a custom transport plane and dedicated landing strip for massive wind farms is economically feasible should give you a hint as to what is at stake.

For review, both wind and solar, allegedly with storage bundled in and without subsidies, is cheaper than the next cheapest (and fossil fuel based) generation method: natural gas turbine, per LCOE numbers from Lazard LAST YEAR.

Natural gas turbine is basically topped out in terms of efficiency and cost, I believe they have already exceeded Carnot efficiency with downstream exhaust heat capture and other maximization techniques. They can't go lower. Wind? Likely has a decade of gradual cost improvement. Solar? Successful integration of perovskites might drop prices 50% or more in the next decade, plus usual economy of scale improvement.

The economics are basically settled. The details are massive scale, load leveling, grid adaptation.

Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by schoen on Saturday March 16, 2024 @05:21AM (#39724422)
Doesn't the Carnot engine capture the absolute thermodynamic optimum for extracting usable energy from a hot object? How do you beat it?
Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by _ph_ on Saturday March 16, 2024 @07:47AM (#39725041)
Well, yes. If you have a combustion engine or a turbine, Carnot tells you exactly the maximal efficiency you could achieve. But the exhaust still can be used for residental heating. So while the generator doesn't get any more efficient at producing electricity, you can use the heat which drives up the overall gain of operating the generator.
Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by thsksbd on Friday March 15, 2024 @10:43PM (#39722887)
As a first order approximation, power scales as the square of the radius.

Of course, problems can scale faster the quadratically, transportation is one of them.

Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by adrianN on Saturday March 16, 2024 @03:59AM (#39724110)
Power actually scales better than the square of the radius, because there is more wind at greater height.
Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by usrusr on Saturday March 16, 2024 @06:43AM (#39724736)
And real nimby impact (as opposed to the impact imagined) scales much less than quadratic, because larger rotor implies lower rpm and rpm has a huge impact on perception. Small rotors emit a very strong "presence" when you are anywhere near, whereas the tallest ones feel as if they are on a different plane of existence even when you are standing right at the base. Certainly not quite as disconnected from reality as airliners passing by at cruising level, but it's a similar effect.
Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by thsksbd on Saturday March 16, 2024 @02:27PM (#39728237)
Thats linear scaling [1] so its still scaling quadratically. Ax^2 + Bx is a quadratic, after all!

(Also, shouldn't the first order approx should neglect wind speed as a function of height?)

[1] actually worse. From Wiki entry for "Wind Gradient"

"Although the power law exponent approximation is convenient, it has no theoretical basis.[18] When the temperature profile is adiabatic, the wind speed should vary logarithmically with height,[19] Measurements over open terrain in 1961 showed good agreement with the logarithmic fit up to 100 m or so, with near constant average wind speed up through 1000 m.[20]"

Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by dimensional_dan on Saturday March 16, 2024 @07:06AM (#39724841)
Maybe make them seaplanes if making airports is too expensive? I just want to bring seaplanes back any way we can really ;)
Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by _ph_ on Saturday March 16, 2024 @07:21AM (#39724904)
Well, for any coastal location, you can just take a ship.
Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by fragmede on Saturday March 16, 2024 @07:29AM (#39724940)
What is the smaller version of this? Just like I can buy a small solar panel that is able to charge a battery that I can then use to charge my phone. Is there a small windmill I can buy that can do a couple hundred watts?
Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by _ph_ on Saturday March 16, 2024 @07:43AM (#39725006)
There are small windmills available for purchase. For a while campers and sailing yachts would use them. But they seem to go out of fashion. The problem is: the efficiency goes up with the size also, there is more wind the higher you go. On top of all of that, windmills are quite noisy. You really cannot use them in residential areas. Solar cells are much easier these days and also cheaper.
Re:How the Biggest Plane Would Supersize Wind Energy by 7952 on Saturday March 16, 2024 @08:24AM (#39725302)
The financial side is not just about energy output alone but includes other constraints and opportunities. A developer may get access to cheaper land and untapped wind resource or grid connection opportunities. A single project like that could make a lot of money. And critically it could be packaged into an opportunity that could be sold to banks and investors. Opening up new opportunities could easily justify a few tens of million in delivery costs.