>I believe that the 3D Touch tech that was once in the iPhone is the same tech that is in the track pad and the Apple Watch

3D touch was only in the iphones for a few years, it was too expensive so they cut it in favor of the haptic touch they have now. The macbook trackpad is nice but honestly I prefer the old 2012 one they had with the actual physical button you could tweak the pressure of with a screwdriver. It seems a lot more ergonomic to have some actual give in the device instead of just jamming your finger onto an unmoving slab of glass. You don't even realize how hard it is you are pressing onto these things until you try testing your muscle memory with the computer off; its sort of alarming.

I thought 3D Touch was cut because no one seemed to know the functionality existed, it had a discoverability issue. It was kinda tacked onto iOS unlike WatchOS where it was part of how the entire OS was designed.

Which I always found unfortunate, it had some really nice uses like not needing to wait when holding down for the OS to register and being able to pull up a context menu, slide up, and release to select the menu item all in one motion. I was sad when it was removed, but I also get it.

I get the idea of a physical trackpad, and I do remember when that was the thing. I honestly don't even notice that the trackpad is not physically moving. It simulates the feel enough that if I didn't know it was not moving I would think it was. You are right it is shocking when you try to use it while it's off and it's like... oh right. But I just am not in that situation often. (However when Mac freezes and it "clicks" multiple times since it did not properly register ealrier, that's honestly kinda wild... but infrequent).

But I also like not needing to think, I need to press on a specific part of the trackpad for it to properly register. I vividly remember only the bottom half really registering and the higher you went the shallower the press was.

I’m sorry what

You can adjust the pressing force required in software, and the glass does in fact depress under your finger. It’s cushioned - that’s how they detect pressure.

My Apple trackpads don’t click when they are powered off. It just feels like pressing a piece of glass.

You can also detect pressure by just measuring how much of your finger is touching the pad. A small spot means light pressure, a large spot where your skin is flatted out more against the glass is higher pressure. In practice these kinds of measurements are fairly tricky so they don't get used very much.

This. If you ever look at apples raw input touch privateframework it provides enough data for the relative direction/size as well as has some encoded states to at least detect between a very faint touch and a finger on the trackpad.

This I think goes back to the first unibody MacBooks from around 2008.

The multitouch trackpads actually showed up in the early 2008 MacBook Pros that were the last ones before switching to the unibody enclosure (IIRC the keyboard/trackpad parts could be retrofitted into 2007 MacBook Pros). The early 2008 models still had a separate physical button at the bottom of the trackpad. The late 2008 models got rid of the button and made the whole trackpad hinged at the top to act as a button. Then in 2015 they introduced the Force Touch trackpad that fixed the awkwardness of needing more force to click the further up the trackpad you went.

Yep. And this blog post from 2009 was a big inspiration for me in exploring touch on the mac: https://archive.org/details/2009-03-28-steike-code-macbook-m...

and a comment a few years ago by me: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23274577

They barely deflect, strain gauges measure the deflection and trigger the haptic part. When off, it does feel pretty solid. When on, the effect is very convincing, you would never know it's not a button without being told. I had a coworker once that was ready to open up his turned-off macbook because he had been near sand recently and was convinced sand must be trapped inside the trackpad because it "didn't depress".

You can choose three settings instead of an arbitrary level of adjustment with the old screw system. It used to be super easy in the very first round of unibodies, practically tooless except for the screwdriver on the trackpad since the battery came out with a finger latch at the time. Just shut the thing off and try it out, if it had cushioning you'd be able to tell then but its basically a slab of glass.

> Even more interesting is when I see my partner try to do something on my Mac using a trackpad, he seems... apprehensive? Like he is so afraid of doing the wrong thing and for me this trackpad has never done something I didn't want it to do. Like without even thinking about it while I was re-reading this comment, I had fingers just resting on my trackpad.

I think I'll never "get" drag&drop on MacBook touchpads. Every time I try to do it, I accidentally open the file info, or the touchpad is too small to actually reach the place where I want to drop the file to. It is absolutely doing things I don't want it to do. I absolutely dread having to use the touchpad. (that applies to other laptops too, though)

Since you mention the touchpad being too small, are you trying to drag and drop with one finger or multiple?

What I always just do is click with my thumb and move around with my other fingers. As long as my thumb stays down it stays selected. Then just a few quick swipes with my finger gets whatever it is I am selecting where I want to go.

Same works for windows and anything you click and drag. Admittedly there is a quirk here that I have noticed, if for some reason I click and try to drag with the same finger, I then can't switch to dragging around with a different finger.

But personally I treat my thumb just resting no the track pad as my click finger and move/gesture with my other fingers.

This works on my system76 lemur pro 10 with pop!_os: - click and hold on the touchpad with thumb - swipe with another finger to drag around. Multiple, disjoint strokes work, so there's nothing special about switching fingers

It would be a bit uncomfortable to do for long periods, since my thumb has to hold down with clicking force.

On that note, why is this possible on iOS but not Android? It's even possible to pick up several icons on the homescreen and then move them to a different screen with your other fingers. Android is a nightmare by comparison.

This is 100% the way to do it.

It just came so naturally because I’ve used Macs for years. But I’ve noticed on Linux and Windows laptops (even Windows on an Intel MacBook) this approach doesn’t work. I find it so frustrating when I have to use a trackpad with any other OS, I completely understand all those users carrying around a mouse to use with their laptop, and why they look at us like we’re nuts!

You know I never really thought about where that habit came from. It’s been so long that it’s just second nature at this point, I dont think about it anymore than I think about typing or using a game controller.

That presents an interesting problem. The older physical click trackpads had a physical thing to encourage a specific use of it. Now that the device doesn’t care where you click, there is no longer something there to naturally find using it in this way.

One configuration I always immediately make is enabling three-finger dragging, along with tap-to-click. Significantly reduces the friction (both literal and figurative).

I've found that many Mac users aren't aware of the three-finger drag and select feature, and it seems Apple has somewhat hidden this setting for some reason: https://support.apple.com/en-gb/102341

With tap-to-click, my touchpad is completely silent.

I've used it since before it was shunted to Accessibility settings.

Nowadays, sometimes Finder gets confused when you use 3-finger drag, and it doesn't work with sliders in the newer control center released years ago.

FWIW, 3-finger drag works perfectly for me. I've never used anything else. Currently on M1 Air with Sonoma.

I don't have a MacBook but I looked up a video and this seems interesting. But how does it solve the problem of hitting the edge of the trackpad? If anything, it seems like it makes the problem worse because now you have three fingers on the trackpad so you will hit the edge quicker.

The gesture is "sticky" when moving objects: you can lift your fingers long enough to move them to the other side of the trackpad to continue dragging.

For selecting text, the trackpad is large enough for nearly any selection.

So I will do my best to explain it, one of the hard problems here is this is just kinda second nature for me. So I may not do a good enough job of explaining it.

But ok so for me, I basically am always resting my thumb (I am right handed if that helps visualize) on the bottom-ish part of my trackpad. So so when I am moving my mouse I have 2 fingers on it. My thumb is just sitting there and my index is moving around.

My thumb is basically my clicking button. It doesn't have to be, but for me it is. It also doesn't have to be at the bottom, I can click anywhere which is nice when I am quickly going from my keyboard to my trackpad and need to click something.

So because I click with my thumb and move with my other finger(s). I can click to drag, select, whatever it is that I am doing with my thumb. And them move with my other finger. With my thumb staying down, I am free to pickup and move my finger as many times as I need. I can pickup my finger for as long as I need to and it will stay selected for as long as my thumb is still there "pressed".

With acceleration that Mac uses, with just a few quick swipes I can easily move a window between 3 monitors.

Since the trackpad is also not physically moving when I "click", it is just pressure sensitive. It also isn't a strain to keep my thumb down.

Oh I get using your thumb to click/hold like it's a button. I was questioning the three-finger-drag but the other comment answered it, the gesture is "sticky" so you can reposition quickly when you hit the edge.

Someone I know who's been using apple forever does the same and it always confuses me. Now I know why!

This is also a holdover from how older trackpads with physical buttons worked. The buttons were at the bottom, so click with the thumb and move with the finger(s).

This is how I first used a trackpad 20+ years ago and I never felt the need to change. I tried some of the newer ways to click and drag and they all seemed worse. Tap to click is the first thing I disable on any laptop, that’s what my thumb is for.

I find it easier to rest my second finger and drag with the third finger as I don't have to twist my hand that way.

Thanks for the hint, I will give that a try.

Try accessibility settings and then 3 finger drag (switching spaces will become 4 fingers). It works really great and makes working in design tools feasible.

Doesn't putting 3 fingers on a track pad already feel so damn awkward? I have to position my wrist so oddly to do something like that.

Personally, I find 3-finger drag to be a dream. I have spent many hours happily using a MacBook this way, and can’t imagine how I’d want it to change.

Three finger drag is a dream. I have switched to Linux and I'm missing it sorely. Linux is lagging behind, but there are hacks. https://github.com/marsqing/libinput-three-finger-drag

Are you positioning your wrist differently for three fingers than for one to place your fingers at a particular angle on the trackpad? Or just to reach further into the trackpad to make room for the other fingers? If it’s the former, you don’t need to do that, it will work at whatever angle feels comfortable to you.

So my hands are always resting on ASDF and JKL;

Most natural to use the track pad is to curl my right hand towards me with my wrist still touching the macbook. One finger feels decent, but already 2 fingers feels a bit off to me. And 3 fingers even worse. It's really stretching my wrist at that point. My wrist is always positioned on right of the trackpad, but putting 3 fingers on the trackpad is putting it at an uncomfortable angle.

Even with one finger I think I have to bring my wrist quite away from the usual position though, off the laptop with its bottom. But three fingers feels uncomfortable even when I do that.

I love drag-and-dropping to arbitrary locations in the Finder using spring-loaded folders. I think it is a bit tricky…if you don’t know the trick.

I turn on the accessibility setting for drag lock as the first thing I do on any new macOS install, that helps a lot

I always turn on 3-finger drag in any Mac I use, not once someone complained I enabled that option for them. I don't understand why it isn't the default...

On laptops with physical left/right buttons, it's as easy and straightforward as it is with the mouse. Thinkpads would be one prominent example.

If I'll ever use a desktop again I also want an external touchpad and I want to place it in front of the keyboard like on a laptop. But you wrote trackpad. It's it the one with the ball? Probably not because you also wrote about multitouch. So, which trackpad do you use?

I'm a 100% trackpad user as well, and I also got into mechanical keyboards so my setups always look like this now:

https://imgur.com/a/pmRO9r9

That one is an older magic trackpad, if it ever dies I'll upgrade to the newer one.

What's the two keyboards layout for? At first I suspected that they are two different keyboards, let's say US and some national layout, but they are both US. Maybe the black one is not connected and it's there only for the picture?

Anyway, that's the keyboard/touchpad layout I would use too. The only difference is that I like touchpads with physical buttons. Three of them because I use Linux and pasting text with the middle button is great.

Ah yeah, the extra keyboard was just there for the photo. I designed the PCB so I'm kinda proud of it :)

I agree that physical buttons are nice. The older magic trackpads actually are physical buttons, but they're on the underside of the trackpad, so the disadvantage there is you don't feel the button on the surface.

Touchpad and trackpad are synonyms. Trackpad is the older term.

My work laptop is a macbook and I have been using it for over 5 years, but I still can't get a handle on it, even for a right click. I am not sure how people find MacOS so good. It just constantly goes against my intution and muscle memory.

I also hate how I have to constantly turn of the mouse acceleration at random times using CLI.

Right click is just tap with two fingers. What issue are you having?

You are right it works, but I guess I somehow usually expect it to happen in a lighter way, without the actual click going through. And when I do it, it feels weird to me. It feels like I have to exert more force than I would find "pleasurable" or "intuitive" for a right click. Like I either expect there to be a button that I have to actually press, or if it's a touchpad it feels like it should work with a lighter tap. It feels like having to press too hard for something that doesn't actually seem to go physically down enough.

Another thing that feels really weird to me is the cmd button location.

On windows I would use ctrl + c and v, it's easy to use my pinky finger, but with mac I have to twist my thumb and index finger.

I don't know. I just can't get into it. All of those little actions that are smooth for me otherwise feel like quite a chore and a turn off.

In the settings you can set how much force is needed, light, medium, or firm. Try changing it to light (if you haven't already). You can also enable tap-to-click there if you prefer the lightest touch. The settings area also shows all the various multitouch things that can be done, which is convenient place to learn them, or get a reminder.

In the settings you can also flip the modifier keys around, like control and command. Though that could lead to other weird things like trying to do control+c in the terminal. I usually use my ring and index, or middle finger and index. If you're using pinky for control, why switch to the thumb when you can use a closer finger that would be over command with your hand in the same position?

I will say the command+c does get a bit cramped, but I think command+v feels better than the stretch of control+v.

So I tried changing the settings, and somehow during that, I accidentally managed to change the size of my menubar, I don't know how. But anyway - even after changing to light, which also seemed an odd process to me that I had to do it as a range slider, where it snapped at certain point in time, even though I was moving my hand smoothly, which I guess is NOT that bad, but it could've been just 3 radio button options, not this goofy slider. And somehow when I click on the option the range option, this simple animation lags and skips. It just doesn't feel smooth animation. I don't have the latest M chip, but I do have an M1 Pro chip, so I'd imagine it should be able to handle animating a slider change... But I didn't finish my sentence previously. Even at light, it doesn't feel like I would intuitively expect it to feel. Something is still wrong.

And another random grievance - what is the point of only showing X, - and the other icon when you hover on them. It's just weird decision to me. The Red > Yellow > Green thing.

Yes, exactly - I did the ctrl cmd switch previously, but then there's

1. Magic Keyboard with no "fn" button.

2. Macbooks own keyboard with FN button. Which really messes with me, because my pinky expects the left most button to be the CTRL action button.

All of it messes with my brain so hard - it makes those little actions hurt me almost every time.

And as you said, different sets of terminals drive me just so crazy.

I might try the settings, but I also overall hate the MacOS settings, as it seems it's all just so obscure and weirdly limited, like someone has given me those random options that do not adhere to me at all. As mentioned previously, no easy ability to turn off acceleration, which keeps gaslighting me and not feeling right even after using CLI to turn it off.

My solution has been to opt just for a mouse, but Magic Mouse feels extremely terrible and awkward to hold. I have Logitech MX Master 3 - which feels nice, but not with Macbook. It sometimes randomly starts to skip and lag, I have to reset it. And it still feels like at times some force is working against me when I'm trying to move the mouse.

I still feel it just somehow working against me even if I have turned off the acceleration, despite it working well with Windows.

And then the MacBook animations, which feel horrible. The jumping up down thing, feels just annoying. The genie effect, terrible, the having to move the app to install it and then no loading indicator, horrible. I know I can turn off the Genie, yes, but it feels so cheesy and cheap animations.

I can honestly list countless things more that I hate about MacOS, but feel so smooth on Windows.

Spotlight feels better with latest MacOS version, but previous ones I always write something, and it just changes moment before, or it gives me irrelevant result. Because I either use spotlight to open the correct app or Windows btn, which is very responsive and always opens what I want.

The search for correct app should be realtime. Also I'm not going to go into window management....

Then one of the very common things I have to do, taking a screenshot from part of a screen and putting it in a clipboard to share with someone. I have to use I think 4 fingers?? And then another click. And all of those 4 fingers in such an awkward position.

I get it. I'm generally in favor of not changing too much, so I can sit down at other systems and use them, or get a new one and not have to spend 2 weeks tweaking and tuning stuff. I figure I'll get used to it eventually. Some things take longer than others, and some things just require acceptance. Deciding that doing things the Apple-way will be easier than fighting against it. I gave in long ago and things got easier. When on Windows or Linux, I try to have the same mindset of doing it the way they intend. I went so far as to read documentation and watch videos to try and figured how the hell Gnome expects people to manage windows without a minimize option, as the add-ons for that seemed very hacky. I don't think I'll ever get used to throwing something in a new desktop instead of minimizing it, but I was working with someone from Red Hat who seemed to do it without even thinking about it, as if it was normal... which I guess it is on Gnome.

lol, yeah, the screenshot keyboard shortcut is crazy (3 fingers). It took me a while to get the muscle memory down, but once I did I liked the flexibility of it way more than Windows (at least at the time which just had print screen, while Apple could do the whole screen, a selection, or a window).

I suppose these days spotlight can open the screenshot utility, although I never think to do that since I've got it down. It's worth going in there at least once, as you can change some settings, like not showing that little thumbnail, automatically saving to the clipboard instead of a file... stuff like that, depending on your needs.

I had the benefit of using OS X since version 10.2, so each year when stuff came out I could just learn those things. If I was starting now it would take me forever to find all the random little stuff and where various settings are hidden away. I don't even know where I'd go to try and learn it all. I'd probably be frustrated as well.

Yeah - I just never feel like I truly have the time or I guess the motivation to keep up to date with those OS updates or releases. I only got Windows for my personal laptop just recently, and it still somehow feels completely natural to me. Despite the last one I seriously used frequently being Windows XP. I don't know if it's just because I spent most of my youth on Windows, and I was tuned to it or not, but MacOS feels like something I'm constantly fighting with.

The only terrible thing about Windows is development, but right now it feels like I'm almost satisfied with WSL2. In the past for my side projects I used to do dualboot.

But also I somehow like Windows design and animations so much better. Another thing about MacOS I can't get hang of is the menubar below and how the windows adjust to it. And it is especially confusing with multiple monitors setup.

I've been trying to "Wing It" to understand MacOS a lot, which I admit, and it hasn't really worked, but it feels like Windows works for me without putting in effort or having to watch any YouTube videos. And I don't think in my youth I watched any tutorials, it's just something that I learned naturally. Then is it my age, but I wasn't that old when I started with MacOS.

Something like even the "Finder" icon bothers me. What is this weird happy, artsy smile, and why can't it just be something that resembles folders? It's just so random, everything about MacOS feels so "random" for me.

Plenty of icons I can't understand, and sometimes the hover text appears on what they mean, sometimes it doesn't. Idk.

For me the standard Command position is much more accessible than the standard Control position, no twisting needed — Control is the one that I find my hand having to contort to reach.

Control still gets used fairly often under macOS though, so it needs to be easy to reach, and my solution is to remap Caps Lock to Control which is pretty comfy. If this remap weren’t possible under Linux and Windows too I think I’d go insane using them.

Which fingers are you using to CMD + C? Because this is one of the more common things I would do and it feels bad every time, I'm using my thumb to press command and it doesn't feel well, and index finger on C.

I have to use side of my thumb to press the CMD kind of.

Not in front of my computer right now but I’m pretty sure it’s thumb and index finger. Feels completely natural.

Maybe it has to do with hand size, finger/joint length, etc?

Okay. Otherwise do you in your natural state hold your left hand index on F and right hand index on J? Going to A on pinky on your left hand and the key after L on your right pinky?

Because I think I have pretty much average male hands, but if I have to do CMD and C, with this natural state position, I have to hit the CMD with pretty much the nail of my thumb sideways, unless I rotate my wrist a lot.

on a mac when i'm in mouse and keyboard mode my left thumb is resting on CMD with my index finger on W (CMD+W, close window), middle on 1 (it'll reach down to do CMD+Q), and ` (CMD+`, cycle through windows)

when i'm in programming mode, i'm in emacs on the homerow

Index on F/J, pinky on A/L, thumb naturally resting on space. Hitting left Command involves bending my thumb and though the press is performed with the side of my thumb, it’s not on its nail but further down.

I find that changing the right click to the bottom right corner works well for me. I constantly have two fingers resting on the trackpad. Other replies have commented about using the thumb to click while you drag with another finger. I do that constantly so I just gave up on the two finger right click. It would trigger all the time when I didn’t want it to.

How do you middle-click?

I got an external trackpad recently too for my Mac, but it feels noticeably less responsive than the one built into my MacBook, even when connected with a USB cable.

> It has to be a combination of software and hardware. Likely shared software and hardware.

You need decent hardware to be sure, but Asashi Linux on Macbooks is a horrific experience, unless you plug in a mouse. It seems like it is mostly software.

> It is an interesting thing to think about, I have friends that use Windows that are shocked that I willingly chose to get an external trackpad when I use my Mac as desktop.

external mouse is much more fun to use

> I have friends that use Windows that are shocked that I willingly chose to get an external trackpad when I use my Mac as desktop

I use an external Apple Magic trackpad on a Windows desktop. It's a good and smooth experience.