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Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by givemeethekeys on Monday March 04, 2024 @12:16AM (#39587247)
I don't understand. Is Taiwan or isn't Taiwan an independent country? If it isn't, then did we just declare war on China?
Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by noxs on Monday March 04, 2024 @12:24AM (#39587279)
Taiwan is not, but China is. Which China is ambiguous.
Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by Vecr on Monday March 04, 2024 @12:39AM (#39587341)
The Republic of China is in control of the island formally known as Formosa. Taipei is a city on Formosa also under Republic of China control. Internationally, representatives of Taipei and the surrounding area are sometimes said to be representing "Chinese Taipei", because Taipei is on Formosa and Formosa is Chinese. There is only one China, and China is the rightful owner of Formosa, and one of its cities, Taipei.
Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by seanmcdirmid on Monday March 04, 2024 @12:46AM (#39587369)
There are also plenty of Taiwanese that don’t think Taiwan belongs to either the PRC or ROC. The DPP, who are in power right now, is much closer to that opinion. Obviously the CPC dislikes the DPP (compared to the KMT, who at least believe Taiwan is a part of a china), but whenever the CPC speaks out against the DPP, the CPC only helps the DPP win elections.
Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by math_dandy on Monday March 04, 2024 @01:04AM (#39587449)
When’s the Formosan independence referendum?
Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by Vecr on Monday March 04, 2024 @01:08AM (#39587469)
Independent of China or China?
Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by throwaway2990 on Monday March 04, 2024 @12:51AM (#39587386)
Taiwan is a country regardless of UN status or opinion.

China just uses its weight to bully countries into submission on declaring their view on Taiwan.

Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by bfung on Monday March 04, 2024 @12:27AM (#39587297)
If you ask people in Taiwan, they will say they’re independent. If you ask China, they’ll say Taiwan belongs to China.

The short history version is basically like this: after the overthrowing of the last emperor and WW2, the Chinese civil war continued between the KMT political party and the Communist party. KMT basically lost and moved to which is Taiwan today and even the KMT now is no longer the controlling majority now (they have elections whereas mainland China does not).

Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by pastacacioepepe on Monday March 04, 2024 @02:39AM (#39587964)
So in Taiwan you ask "the people", in China you ask "China"? Can't you hide your bias any better? It really shows.
Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by jack1243star on Monday March 04, 2024 @03:00AM (#39588058)
I guess it's not as easy to do polls in an authoritarian country.
Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by pastacacioepepe on Monday March 04, 2024 @03:10AM (#39588119)
China is a socialist democracy. How did you get the impression that it's an authoritarian country?

I mean, China does not

- have the highest incarcerated population in the world

- have the most militarized police force in the world

- have waged any war in the past 45 years

Those are usualy three great signs of authoritarianism.

Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by samus on Monday March 04, 2024 @04:06AM (#39588412)
None of these criteria qualify. Try again.
Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by pastacacioepepe on Monday March 04, 2024 @04:22AM (#39588506)
How about limited political pluralism?

How is a two party system where both parties are firmly pro-capitalism any different from a single party system with internal political currents?

Wanna talk about how prominent is the role of intelligence services and how much power do they have compared to the elected political representatives?

Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by samus on Monday March 04, 2024 @04:50AM (#39588651)
That's a better argument :) I'd also like to add that prisoners in the USA lose their voting rights. However, the argument was initially about Taiwan, not about the USA.
Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by throwaway2990 on Monday March 04, 2024 @05:10AM (#39588757)
China has 18 border disputes and has been encroaching on India. Don’t try make the claim it hasn’t waged war when it is.

It also enslaves an entire ethnic group. Highest executions. Almost 100% conviction rate. Has undercover police operations all around the world pretending to be Chinese cultural or help centers for Chinese people.

Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by pastacacioepepe on Monday March 04, 2024 @06:09AM (#39589073)
> China has 18 border disputes and has been encroaching on India. Don’t try make the claim it hasn’t waged war when it is.

China hasn't engaged in any war in the past 45 years, this is a fact you can easily verify on your own, whether you like it or not.

> It also enslaves an entire ethnic group. Highest executions. Almost 100% conviction rate.

Dubious claims from biased sources. In any case the US incarcerates 6x more black people than white, accounting for population amounts, and also forces them to labor for private companies.

> Has undercover police operations all around the world pretending to be Chinese cultural or help centers for Chinese people.

Say hello to the NSA and CIA, there's a good chance one of their employees or algorithms will stumble upon this thread at some point.

Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by throwaway2990 on Monday March 04, 2024 @06:18AM (#39589128)
> a state of usually open and declared armed hostile conflict between states or nations

Based on the definition of war. China has engaged in war multiple times. And is actively in no less than 18 border disputes with conflicts with Philippines and India.

Take your CPC boot licking elsewhere.

Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by sandspar on Monday March 04, 2024 @08:54AM (#39590505)
He told the truth.
Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by smoldesu on Monday March 04, 2024 @04:23PM (#39596315)
They also didn't refute anything the parent said. "Dubious claims from biased sources" isn't denying that Uighur exploitation happens, it's a strawman that diverts the criticism to the media. Same goes for the CIA/NSA comment and incarceration statistics - they seem to be under the impression that other countries taking nuanced action excuses nuclear-option behavior from a one-party state.

Suffice to say that if the United States is deserving of criticism, then China's actions are due double the scrutiny. As an American citizen, I take no issue holding both countries accountable.

Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by tz18 on Monday March 04, 2024 @08:29AM (#39590212)
what are you gonna spend your 50 cents on?
Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by sandspar on Monday March 04, 2024 @08:54AM (#39590498)
Your paranoia is clouding your judgement. He told the truth and you are unable to recognize it due to your paranoia.
Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by pastacacioepepe on Monday March 04, 2024 @08:59AM (#39590555)
> China has 18 border disputes and has been encroaching on India. Don’t try make the claim it hasn’t waged war when it is. China hasn't engaged in any war in the past 45 years, this is a fact you can easily verify on your own, whether you like it or not.

> It also enslaves an entire ethnic group. Highest executions. Almost 100% conviction rate.

Dubious claims from biased sources. In any case the US incarcerates 6x more black people than white, accounting for population amounts, and also forces them to labor for private companies.

> Has undercover police operations all around the world pretending to be Chinese cultural or help centers for Chinese people.

Say hello to the NSA and CIA, there's a good chance one of their employees or algorithms will stumble upon this thread at some point.

Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by smoldesu on Monday March 04, 2024 @01:33PM (#39594093)
> Dubious claims from biased sources.

What makes the Human Rights Watch a dubious source, in your opinion? Who should we trust instead?

https://www.hrw.org/tag/uyghurs

> there's a good chance one of their employees or algorithms will stumble upon this thread at some point.

There's a good chance Chinese intelligence finds this thread, too. That's not a response to the parent's accusation of Chinese undercover police stations that terrorize cities the world over.

Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by matthewfelgate on Monday March 04, 2024 @05:14AM (#39588787)
Literally wrong on every point.
Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by sandspar on Monday March 04, 2024 @08:53AM (#39590485)
The KMT is now a modern political party much like any other, which generally performs very well in elections.
Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by bfung on Monday March 04, 2024 @05:55PM (#39597276)
To the person who got flagged to death, apologies I wasn’t ultra precise in grammar, and yes, my experiences does bias me a bit.

Though, in my experience, asking that question to people in China (or from there) is generally met with:

  * I don’t know, not interested in politics
  * Chinese people live there so they’re a part of China (not separating gov from race/ethnicity as a naive answer)
  * (no comment)
Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by pyuser583 on Monday March 04, 2024 @12:18AM (#39587260)
The US position is deliberately ambiguous.
Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by givemeethekeys on Monday March 04, 2024 @12:20AM (#39587263)
Permanently stationing our best and brightest looks anything but ambiguous though.
Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by icegreentea2 on Monday March 04, 2024 @12:35AM (#39587327)
Yes, the US' ambiguity has been slipping a little bit of late, but it still compatible with their long-term held position. The US has consistently (over decades) both not recognized PRC sovereignty over Taiwan, while also not recognizing Taiwanese independence.

However, US actions have also been clear. In 1996, the US sailed a carrier battle group right down the straits when things get testy. The US has been selling weapons to Taiwan for decades. The US has enacted export limitations against one country, but not another.

Functionally, this action did not declare war on China. Yes, China leadership could find a way to stretch this into "war", but they also could have stretched any of the other things the US has recently done (including Biden straight up saying that the US would intervene if China invaded).

Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by quartesixte on Monday March 04, 2024 @01:25AM (#39587574)
Yeah diplomacy isn't a series of automatic actions based on flow-control or checklists. Just because you crossed some lines doesn't mean the other party will respond exactly how they will.

That being said, credibility is important when making threats. And letting your lines in the proverbial sand get crossed, moved, erased, redrawn, etc. endlessly can make for some ... interesting geopolitical situations.

Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by sandspar on Monday March 04, 2024 @08:58AM (#39590544)
The Taiwan Strait is 81 miles wide at its narrowest point. Imagine the reaction in America if China sailed a carrier fleet 81 miles off of New York.
Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by wolverine876 on Monday March 04, 2024 @01:01AM (#39587433)
It's a very small force, no threat to China's military.
Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by sfmike on Monday March 04, 2024 @02:26AM (#39587893)
unfortunately its sacrifices to give cause to war
Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by whythre on Monday March 04, 2024 @01:11AM (#39587492)
The troops stationed there are not meant to hold off a mainland invasion by themselves.

The presence of US troops means that if China attacks, the USA is going to suffer military casualties, so there is almost certainly going to be war between the CCP and the US.

Without US troop presence, things are more ambiguous.

Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by The_Colonel on Monday March 04, 2024 @06:20AM (#39589144)
Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by wolverine876 on Monday March 04, 2024 @01:22PM (#39593930)
These are trainers (if that article is correct - I have no idea of their credibility), not a tripwire force.
Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by whythre on Monday March 04, 2024 @05:13PM (#39596856)
The two are not mutually exclusive. If China invades and kills US soldiers in the process, training team or no, that’s still gonna be casus belli for the US.
Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by wolverine876 on Monday March 04, 2024 @07:44PM (#39598074)
I don't think so. Iranian proxies and others have killed US soldiers recently without starting a war.
Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by pyuser583 on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @12:26AM (#39599760)
The US had a training team in Georgia when Russia invaded.

The trainers turned themselves over to the Russians, and were interred (at the Ritz) as neutral soldiers.

A training team can be a tripwire, or not.

Again, ambiguity.

Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by palmfacehn on Monday March 04, 2024 @12:41AM (#39587357)
I agree that the situation doesn't make sense at first glance. The contradictions are glaring. The US has both supported the one-China policy and supported Taiwanese independence. Even with these simple statements, someone here will probably find fault and offer a correction.

This isn't something that can be understood outside of the "ends-justify-the-means", "but my pragmatism" and other sausage making slogans of the foreign policy establishment. We'd have to go through all of the historical machinations before we'd even begin to have a context.

You're not wrong for looking for some semblance of logical consistency. If you prefer analysis from first principles, that's fine, I'd even agree with that perspective in many ways, but you'll have difficulty evaluating the status quo of geopolitics.

Maybe a long way of saying that it doesn't make sense, it isn't supposed to make sense under scrutiny, it probably never will make sense and the expectation is for knights-errant.

Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by temporalparts on Monday March 04, 2024 @12:50AM (#39587383)
Going by the contrapositive: Since China doesn't perceive this as a declaration of war, then I guess by your binary logic Taiwan's an independent country.
Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by lmm on Monday March 04, 2024 @12:53AM (#39587395)
"Country" is an abstract concept and this is one of the cases where the abstraction breaks down. The map is not the territory etc..

Taiwan is a sovereign nation in most respects, at least to the extent that any non-superpower is. China insists stringently on the legal fiction that it is a part of China controlled by a different faction in a frozen-but-ongoing civil war, and other countries - not least Taiwan itself - go along with that legal fiction under the implicit or explicit threat of Chinese force; a threat that is less effective against the US than against many other countries.

Is this an act of war by the US against the PRC? Eh, maybe, if you accept the PRC's territorial claims. A lot of technically-acts-of-war happen, especially in situations like this. Again this is a case where the abstraction breaks down and the realpolitik becomes paramount.

Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by sandspar on Monday March 04, 2024 @08:55AM (#39590512)
China's case is not legal fiction. The Treaty of San Francisco didn't clearly state whether Taiwan is part of China. The legal matter is ambiguous. Both China and Taiwan have legal standing.
Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by hehhehaha on Monday March 04, 2024 @12:54AM (#39587402)
All foreign relations are an expression of power. Taiwan is a country if enough powerful nations say so and are willing to defend the idea. Mainland China is part of the Republic of China if Taiwan has the military might. The one china policy holds as long as the KMT and PRC are in power. Etc etc etc.
Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by 29athrowaway on Monday March 04, 2024 @01:03AM (#39587440)
It depends who you ask.

In practice, it is an independent country. But the People's Republic of China (PRC) has a "one China" policy where they claim Taiwan as theirs.

PRC spends a large deal of their diplomatic efforts trying to enforce their policy.

Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by darthrupert on Monday March 04, 2024 @01:03AM (#39587443)
Republic of China is an independent country, but for now its territory is limited to just the island of Taiwan instead of its legitimate territory of mainland China.
Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by TulliusCicero on Monday March 04, 2024 @01:09AM (#39587479)
It's independent, but for historical reasons we have to pretend that it kind of isn't.

But it is, obviously. Anyone who's not a moron can see that.

Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by sandspar on Monday March 04, 2024 @08:48AM (#39590428)
The San Francisco treaty left the matter ambiguous. It is not legally black and white.
Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by waterheater on Monday March 04, 2024 @01:10AM (#39587480)
Other folks have highlighted the basics, so here's an analogous situation to think about: imagine that the US civil war saw the CSA taking over the territory of the USA, with the US federal government moving to a large hypothetical island off the East Coast. The CSA never completely eliminated all constituent US elements, so the USA still technically exists.

Fast forward to sixty years after the fighting just stopped one day. How would you view those two political entities? Are they equal? Does the existence of the CSA mean the USA doesn't exist as a country? What if the CSA implements trade policies which dissuade you from recognizing the USA as an independent nation? Does the USA still exist in your eyes? Is the USA or the CSA the "true" country?

The answer at this point in time is quite simple: the Republic of China (aka Taiwan) is clearly an independent country. However, the People's Republic of China (aka China) holds such economic power, they bully the rest of the world (though trade policies, etc.) into not recognizing Taiwan as an independent country. Also, the combination of geography and maritime law means that if Taiwan is an independent country, China has very little direct access to the open seas. They want freedom of navigation, so there's a geopolitical angle as well. Look into the construction of artificial islands in the South China Sea to advance the Nine Dashed Line policy.

You also need to remember that Chinese civilization is extremely old. The PRC claims to hold something called the Mandate of Heaven, which is a fairly important concept in Chinese history, as it is divine authority to rule over the Chinese people. Frankly, based on how the PRC acts, the RC clearly holds the Mandate of Heaven these days.

Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by samus on Monday March 04, 2024 @02:09AM (#39587773)
China would have open access to the oceans even without controlling Taiwan. The same rules that deny China territorial rights to the South China Sea also grant it access to the oceans. The Nine Dash line is about territory. China wants the South China Sea to be considered its territorial waters where it can make stronger demands about who passes through and what they could do there. It's not the only country trying to do something like that, but international law generally only recognizes the sea up to 12 miles out to be territorial waters.

The Mandate of Heaven is rather more like a justification of de-facto rule and claiming to have lost it is an argument against a failing dynasty. The dynasty managing to unite China would declare it, and as it eventually collapses, rebels would declare it to be forfeit. There would be messy civil war, one of the warring groups would dominate all the others, and the cycle starts anew.

Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by sandspar on Monday March 04, 2024 @08:52AM (#39590471)
The Taiwan Strait is extremely efficient for shipping routes. The sea and wind to the East of Taiwan are treacherous. Going the long way round would be very difficult and greatly increase shipping costs for a substantial portion of the world's goods.
Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by samus on Monday March 04, 2024 @11:48AM (#39592519)
This is not an issue at all because the current rules permit peaceful passage through territorial waters. That broadly means no lingering, no spying, and going straight to the intended destination. Access can be denied for security reasons of course.

This is totally fine for commercial traffic. Since China has a huge export market, it is also not interested in raising shipping costs.

Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by sandspar on Monday March 04, 2024 @08:50AM (#39590458)
Taiwan is not clearly independent. The issue was treated in Treaty of San Francisco, yet the treaty never unambiguously declared whether Taiwan is independent. It's an extremely complex legal issue. You can state your case but understand that the opposing case has just as much legal ground.
Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by tehjoker on Monday March 04, 2024 @01:16AM (#39587516)
Yep, that's how China will interpret it. It won't become hot, but it's such an aggressive move, and "trainers" rarely only do training, that it will ratchet up tensions.
Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by seanmcdirmid on Monday March 04, 2024 @01:17AM (#39587523)
They are there as a deadman’s switch, so if China invades Taiwan, America will have to get involved. They had the same play on the Korean border for a few decades. You are correct it isn’t just training, but to ensure the American people are committed because American troops would have been killed in the PLA’s initial missile volley.
Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by tehjoker on Monday March 04, 2024 @11:21PM (#39599413)
That's an escalation. It also violates the sovereignty of China, which America recognizes officially under the "one china policy".
Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by seanmcdirmid on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @10:25AM (#39604555)
That’s international politics. Yes, mainland Chinese will be face hurt, but face hurt is not against Geneva convention.

The Taiwan situation has been escalating for awhile now that almost everyone expects an invasion before Xi’s lifetime term ends.

Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by AdamH12113 on Monday March 04, 2024 @01:22AM (#39587553)
Practically? Yes, it’s an independent country and has been for many decades. They have their own government, military, currency, etc.

Diplomatically? No, most countries officially recognize it as part of the PRC.

Why the inconsistency? If you recognize Taiwan’s independence, the PRC won’t talk to you. If Taiwan declares independence, the PRC will invade (or at least has threatened to).

Pretending that Taiwan is part of China while also making it very clear that we will defend Taiwan from China bit silly, but being silly is better than having a great power war.

Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by iforgotpassword on Monday March 04, 2024 @03:13AM (#39588150)
Well said. Make it look not worth it to China but at the same time play by their rules. Both sides know this is one of the biggest games of bullshit going on. The two risk factors now are China's economy tanking and Xi being a lifetime dictator. If the population suffers, having an external crisis at hand where you can easily paint the other side as the bad guy is an excellent distraction, and for the other point, absolute power corrupts absolutely. A we've seen with Putin, as you near the end of your life the less you care about the fallout of your actions, but at the same time your desire to leave a mark grows...
Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by za3faran on Monday March 04, 2024 @10:15AM (#39591434)
The question is, how many countries is the US going to "defend" before things collapse? This does not seem like a sustainable situation.
Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by AdamH12113 on Monday March 04, 2024 @11:34AM (#39592327)
The US has been supporting Taiwan's de facto independence since the 1950s. I'm not sure what's supposed to be unsustainable about that, or what "things" are supposed to "collapse".
Re:US permanently deploys training mission in Taiwan by sandspar on Monday March 04, 2024 @08:46AM (#39590407)
The question of whether Taiwan is an independent country is fundamentally ambiguous. The answer hinges on esoteric readings of WW2 era treaties. The treaties themselves didn't declare unambiguously whether Taiwan is part of China. Both China and Taiwan have adequate legal standing to argue the point. There is no clear answer and there never will be.