I think it's a bold claim to make, that conservative religious communities are comprised of humans who don't lie, cheat, steal, and have their libido under control.

I'm sure some exist, just by dint of probability, but plenty more are made of regular stock humans like you or me, or worse.

All churches are full of sinners just like hospitals are full of sick people.

You're there to get well.

The difference is that doctors and nurses are certified and policed.

Pastors are as well. Just differently.

Each church has a board of elders who will hire/fire/correct/counsel the pastors. At most protestant churches at least. I can't speak for all churches.

I've seen a board of elders remove a megachurch founding pastor. They take their positions seriously.

I have more faith in the Protestant and Baptist, more decentralized methods. Catholic monoliths, less so.

I can understand that.

American evangelist preachers are notorious tax-evaders. Just sayin'.

Beats the other sort of thing religious leaders can get up to.

Well, I'm not. But it's a good point, one that hopefully everyone there agrees on in mind and heart.

you are misunderstanding me - I am saying the act of being traditionally conservative - that is embodying the traditionally conservative values of not lying cheating etc - that is counter-cultural. "conservative communities" do not necessarily embody "traditionally conservative values".

That feels unnecessarily savior-lauding and like blending a grab bag of unrelated traits into an idealized person.

There's plenty of darkness within the strictures of conservative religious communities -- mostly resultant from the evil that corrupt people perpetrate when given (by God) power in hierarchical structures.

> traditionally moral

Having traditional morals isn't the same as being moral.

Source: Hm... 6, maybe more, different friends who grew up in different versions of these communities, each of whom describes them as "dangerous cults".

Being labeled as dangerous is a strong argument that they are counter cultures.

If you are accepted by the mainstream, you aren't counter culture, just a flavor.

Counterculture isn't necessarily cool or good or safe.

On the contrary, when you look at who holds power in the US, it is conservative religious people. From actual lawmakers to the media. They get to set the culture.

It would be nice if that was the case, but that's not how political and media dynamics work. Just because these folks like to pander to traditional values or spirituality doesn't mean that they'll be driven to further them meaningfully in their day-to-day work.

It is delusional to say this in the face of, for just one example, the Chief Justice of Alabama justifying a decision out of their religious beliefs.

That's a lovely ideal. As a former lifelong Mormon living in Utah, I can attest first hand that the average doesn't resemble the ideal. It's a nice ideal though and it's good to have ideals, as long as you're consistent with them.

Nothing more counter-cultural than a caricature of traditional culture?

Which conservative religious community(ies) are you alluding to? That could probably be considered a snarky question, but I really don't know which religions have withstood the prying eyes of modernity; they all seem to have been exposed as about as rotten an institution as their secular counterparts.

Perhaps the Amish or something like that? And of course, they have their practices that we would consider unsavory anyway.

I am not really talking about communities but rather individual qualities.

People have been saying that for years and it's just as absurd now as it's ever been.

Yeah I think this is just stray fire from internal-facing propaganda by these communities. This is what they tell themselves (mostly their youth) but it doesn't take much scrutiny for it to fall apart. I say this as a religious person who is prone to this self-perception myself.

> There is nother more counter to the cultural moment then being a traditionally moral, upright citizen who doesnt do drugs, doesnt lie, cheat, steal, has their libido under control, is reliable, whose existence is profitable to the rest of the world (not neccessarily economically, just mean someone who contributes more than they take : financially, emotionally, etc)

The drug use is going down, alcoholism is going down, violent crime is going down, there was mini-panique just yesterday on HN over young people having less sex ...

That's because the drugs and sex are getting replaced across modern culture by p0rn and video games. It's not a sign of spiritual growth, the young people of today's mainstream West are still mired in pointless craving and desire. Conservative religious communities offer a way out of that predicament.

BTW the "conservative" part is not, strictly speaking, required but if you object to that I don't think you would like the "e/acc" variety of spirituality either. This is powerful stuff, and it makes 100% sense to have some "traditional" safeguards within it.

> That's because the drugs and sex are getting replaced across modern culture by p0rn and video games.

This rings very true, look at kids not driving.

Well, OP defined it as "doesnt do drugs, doesnt lie, cheat, steal, has their libido under control, is reliable, whose existence is profitable to the rest of the world". Porn and video games are not in those categories.

> Conservative religious communities offer a way out of that predicament.

They play video games. Also, per all available stats they do use porn.

> In my opinion, todays true counterculture is conservative religious communities.

Jihad vs. McWorld is essentially about this point.