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Re:The Fed Is Behind the Capital One/Discover Merger by fumeux_fume on Thursday February 22, 2024 @10:43PM (#39476693)
I'll finish your sentence for you. The merchant just raises prices so you can pretend like your points are saving you money.
Re:The Fed Is Behind the Capital One/Discover Merger by astrange on Thursday February 22, 2024 @11:09PM (#39476861)
Merchants don't automatically pass through all costs any more than they'd pass through all savings if all their customers moved to debit cards. It depends who has the pricing power.
Re:The Fed Is Behind the Capital One/Discover Merger by AnthonyMouse on Friday February 23, 2024 @04:37AM (#39478686)
Not really, because the "tax" applies to competitors as well. In an uncompetitive industry the merchant has pricing power and can just raise the price, true. But in a competitive industry, margins are thin and they have to raise the price or they go out of business, and so do their competitors, which is what allows them to.
Re:The Fed Is Behind the Capital One/Discover Merger by kelnos on Thursday February 22, 2024 @11:44PM (#39477072)
Which means if you want to "pay less", you have to play the credit cards rewards game to its fullest. We don't get to set the prices, merchants do.

Some merchants offer cash discounts (or a credit card surcharge), and you can make use of that if you want to. Ultimately I use cards for the convenience, regardless.

Re:The Fed Is Behind the Capital One/Discover Merger by arcticbull on Friday February 23, 2024 @02:35AM (#39477911)
Just get a Citi Double Cash 2% no annual fee cash back card. Nothing to play.
Re:The Fed Is Behind the Capital One/Discover Merger by alanbernstein on Friday February 23, 2024 @06:31AM (#39479354)
... Until the terms for that card change
Re:The Fed Is Behind the Capital One/Discover Merger by jgalt212 on Friday February 23, 2024 @07:53AM (#39479940)
more than some. pretty much every small biz in my town does so (around 3%). not to self: carry more cash. My B2B business charges a 3% surcharge for credit cards over ACH or checks.
Re:The Fed Is Behind the Capital One/Discover Merger by fnordpiglet on Thursday February 22, 2024 @11:35PM (#39477013)
There’s a lot more than fees that pass back to merchants FWIW. Fraud etc does too. That insurance is generally borne by the merchant.
Re:The Fed Is Behind the Capital One/Discover Merger by nicolas_t on Thursday February 22, 2024 @10:52PM (#39476757)
Points are a way for people who buy with cash, debit cards and cards with lower fees to subsidise the travels of people who use points.
Re:The Fed Is Behind the Capital One/Discover Merger by ensignavenger on Thursday February 22, 2024 @11:07PM (#39476846)
There is nothing stopping stores from offering a discount if you pay in cash or debit. Businesses most often choose not to, so they must feel like they are getting somthing out of the deal.
Re:The Fed Is Behind the Capital One/Discover Merger by vineyardmike on Thursday February 22, 2024 @11:39PM (#39477041)
Humorously, there are laws against credit card surcharges but not against cash discounts.

Realistically, the price difference is probably not worth the hassle of needing two prices and card sales are probably affordable enough and common enough to not bother.

https://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions/pub/15/15-50168-CV0.pd...

Re:The Fed Is Behind the Capital One/Discover Merger by kelnos on Thursday February 22, 2024 @11:46PM (#39477076)
Strange, I've seen quite a few merchants that do the card surcharge thing, and no one seems to complain.
Re:The Fed Is Behind the Capital One/Discover Merger by rrrrrrrrrrrryan on Friday February 23, 2024 @04:03AM (#39478480)
The Supreme Court settled it in 2017 actually - surcharges are fine now:

https://archive.is/eYB5W

They basically said a surcharge for credit is effectively the same thing as a discount for cash, and because of freedom of speech, merchants are free to communicate the difference to their customers either way.

Re:The Fed Is Behind the Capital One/Discover Merger by sidewndr46 on Friday February 23, 2024 @08:25AM (#39480280)
But is a payment processor required to process charges from a vendor stating they have a surcharge?
Re:The Fed Is Behind the Capital One/Discover Merger by oohffyvfg on Friday February 23, 2024 @11:25AM (#39482642)
only took them a few decades
Re:The Fed Is Behind the Capital One/Discover Merger by bonton89 on Friday February 23, 2024 @08:04AM (#39480060)
I've seen cash stations offer a cash discount. It was always less than my credit card's gas reward and required me to go inside the station to pay.
Re:The Fed Is Behind the Capital One/Discover Merger by vikingerik on Friday February 23, 2024 @10:23AM (#39481668)
Gas stations do the cash discount for a particular reason - to get you inside the building where you might buy profitable convenience-store items, which you won't if you just stay at the pump. (Though yes, the differential might be less than the kickback from a card rewards program.)
Re:The Fed Is Behind the Capital One/Discover Merger by kjkjadksj on Friday February 23, 2024 @11:37AM (#39482803)
Ive seen restaurants do as much as 4% off for cash.
Re:The Fed Is Behind the Capital One/Discover Merger by a_subsystem on Thursday February 22, 2024 @11:52PM (#39477122)
Several restaurants around me offer a cash 'discount'.
Re:The Fed Is Behind the Capital One/Discover Merger by mattmaroon on Friday February 23, 2024 @09:02AM (#39480662)
As a small merchant I can tell you: cash sucks to deal with and it costs money too. I went to cashless years ago. The 2.x% I eat in processing is more than made up for in not having to deal with shrinkage (either due to theft or inaccuracy or counterfiet bills), security, having to count money and go to the bank regularly, etc.

It's probably different when you're at a much larger scale than I am, but even Wal-Mart (who I was employed by in my late teens) has all sorts of cash-handling procedures to mitigate the risk of money just walking away. Even a their scale, they spend 1% on CC processing, but by the time they added up all of the labor and expenses of cash handling,it might be comparable. And for a small business it's likely more.

And then there's the data collection which has value too.

People act like accepting cash is free, it is not.

Re:The Fed Is Behind the Capital One/Discover Merger by coldpie on Friday February 23, 2024 @09:54AM (#39481253)
Thanks, this is an interesting opinion to read! I went through a period where I asked most small/local businesses I happened to be shopping at whether they preferred cash or card, as I had both to hand. It was a small sample size, but the vast majority said they didn't care either way, and a handful said they preferred cash. I never experienced card-only or a card-preference. That did surprise me, as I expected at least some to feel as you do.
Re:The Fed Is Behind the Capital One/Discover Merger by xur17 on Friday February 23, 2024 @09:18AM (#39480844)
This is why we need a digital cash equivalent. Transferring value shouldn't have to cost 1-3% of the transaction value. It's an absurdly high tax.
Re:The Fed Is Behind the Capital One/Discover Merger by mattmaroon on Friday February 23, 2024 @07:44PM (#39488006)
It is especially because most of the fraud just gets passed onto the merchants anyway
Re:The Fed Is Behind the Capital One/Discover Merger by ac29 on Saturday February 24, 2024 @12:25PM (#39493296)
Debit card transactions in the US are capped to 0.05% + 21c for non-exempt card issuers[0]. The problem is there are a lot of exempt issuers.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durbin_amendment

Re:The Fed Is Behind the Capital One/Discover Merger by dalyons on Friday February 23, 2024 @12:33AM (#39477324)
somewhat true but the reality is far worse - points/rewards are mostly subsidised by the poorer folk who get caught paying the > 25% interest on their carried credit card balance.
Re:The Fed Is Behind the Capital One/Discover Merger by asadotzler on Friday February 23, 2024 @04:16AM (#39478562)
you could just as well say that the mortgage interest payments the bank takes in are subsidizing credit card points, or HELOC origination fees, or account maintenance fees are subsidizing points. you could also say the bank's profits from trading securities, or their lucrative wealth managements services are subsidizing points. but none of that would be accurate. The banks have a range of services and some are big wins and some are marginal and some may even be losses, and of course the wins help balance out the losses, but unless you can show that points disappear if poor folks manage their credit better and pay more reasonable interest rates, it's not reasonable to frame points as being subsidized by the poor.
Re:The Fed Is Behind the Capital One/Discover Merger by pingore on Friday February 23, 2024 @07:14AM (#39479631)
High-end rewards cards are quite profitable on their own, thanks to the annual fee, high volume of interchange fees, and the high probability of successful collection.

Low end cards aren’t expensive because they are subsidizing high-end cards; they are expensive because they need to cover the collection costs

Re:The Fed Is Behind the Capital One/Discover Merger by jjav on Friday February 23, 2024 @04:14AM (#39478548)
> The merchant just raises prices so you can pretend like your points are saving you money.

No, you are saving money, because while the merchant raises the price to account for it, everyone gets the higher price regardless how you pay. At least with a card you can get some of it back.

(With rare exceptions, some vendors do give a cash discount. In which case I always pay cash.)

Re:The Fed Is Behind the Capital One/Discover Merger by actionfromafar on Friday February 23, 2024 @07:31AM (#39479740)
So, in other words, fraud insurance is a socialized cost paid by all consumers.

Where's the incentive to minimize fraud though...

Re:The Fed Is Behind the Capital One/Discover Merger by hazmazlaz on Friday February 23, 2024 @08:23AM (#39480244)
The networks have a massive incentive to minimize fraud. That's not to say that they are wildly successful or anything, but I do know from first hand professional experience that card networks spend a lot of time, money, and research into detecting and preventing fraud.
Re:The Fed Is Behind the Capital One/Discover Merger by vundercind on Friday February 23, 2024 @08:48AM (#39480510)
- Payment networks drop accounts with a too-high fraud rate.

- They and similar businesses (e.g. Stripe) offer automated tools to deal with fraud… for a price.

Outcome: the incentive to minimize fraud, which is often a result of crap security from the payment network, is on merchants, who also get charged extra protection money to get payment networks to do stuff they ought to be doing in the first place.

Re:The Fed Is Behind the Capital One/Discover Merger by vikingerik on Friday February 23, 2024 @10:20AM (#39481632)
Ultimately, that incentive is the legal system, which can legislate against allowing fraud and forcefully impose penalties for it. (And operating it is a socialized cost, such that your first sentence is still correct.)
Re:The Fed Is Behind the Capital One/Discover Merger by foolswisdom on Friday February 23, 2024 @10:07AM (#39481417)
Yes, because the merchants raise prices because people pay with credit cards (which take fees), you take back a little (though of course not all) of extra markup via points, assuming you use a 2% cashback card (at least) on your purchase (which assuredly many people don't).