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Re:Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick ... by zbrozek on Thursday February 15, 2024 @12:06AM (#39379324)
Some local councils around here want to make it a condition of approval that the first floor of mixed-use must remain commercial. Developers want it to be flexible because they can't predict future need. Constraints cost! Euclidean zoning is an unspeakably expensive economic blunder.
Re:Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick ... by epistasis on Thursday February 15, 2024 @12:07AM (#39379329)
Urban Planning has to be one of the worst professions in the existence of humanity. We were all better off without urban planners, and everything they advocate for and enforce makes the world worse.
Re:Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick ... by screye on Thursday February 15, 2024 @12:21AM (#39379397)
Modern urban planners oppose most of the dystopian development seen in the US. What you see here is the stakeholders getting what they want. (Which might not be what they need)

Only in this case, the stakeholders are other residents in the neighborhood...not prospective buyers.

Re:Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick ... by epistasis on Thursday February 15, 2024 @12:40AM (#39379509)
Despite what they might oppose, as part of their profession they must uphold the determinations of the stakeholders.

The purpose of a system is what it does. The supposed opposition of planners, a completely ineffectual and meaningless opposition that has zero effect on any policy outcome, does not change the fact that planning as a profession ends up being this means to an end.

Re:Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick ... by chongli on Thursday February 15, 2024 @03:14AM (#39380262)
Urban planners are people, not systems. Firefighters oppose fires and try to put them out, yet fires still happen. Would you say that the purpose of firefighting is to burn down houses?
Re:Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick ... by epistasis on Thursday February 15, 2024 @12:07PM (#39385190)
The proper analogy here would be that the firefighters, despite personally opposing more fires, go out and set houses on fire because their profession requires them to do so.

The entire system is set up to produce worse outcomes, and the planners are the ones constructing and enabling the system.

Re:Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick ... by chongli on Thursday February 15, 2024 @03:57PM (#39388718)
planners are the ones constructing and enabling the system

No, they aren't. The worst outcomes would happen regardless of whether or not planners were involved. The ones to blame are the vested stakeholders (homeowners and developers), not the planners working for the city trying to fix things.

You can see the whole thing play out (comedically) on the show Parks and Rec. Real life is just a drier, more cynical version of that story.

Re:Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick ... by CamperBob2 on Thursday February 15, 2024 @12:42AM (#39379519)
No, modern urban planners basically want us all (except for them, of course) living in a modern Kowloon.
Re:Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick ... by tmnvix on Thursday February 15, 2024 @01:45AM (#39379817)
At least in the US I assumed the opposite. Enormous setbacks, parking minimums to meet the busiest day of the year, extra wide lanes with no dangerous things like tree trunks alongside, etc.

It all looks like some cheap developer got away with something when in fact they know that old-style main streets are highly desirable and would build like that if the regulations allowed.

Re:Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick ... by epistasis on Thursday February 15, 2024 @12:44AM (#39379533)
I actually want to live in a modern Kowloon, but the planners will not allow that, whatever their wishes, because they are the prison guards to a prison system. They must enforce what they are told, and at the same time wish to not take responsibility for their actions.
Re:Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick ... by adrianN on Thursday February 15, 2024 @12:52AM (#39379574)
No they don't.
Re:Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick ... by hackerlight on Thursday February 15, 2024 @01:42AM (#39379807)
It's the opposite. Urban planners have a vested interest in zoning because their career relies on it.

Also, the existence of Kowloon is a good thing. The people who live there would have worse lives if Kowloon was never allowed to build like that. They would be forced to live further away from their work, subjecting them to an hour a day on a cramped train, for example.

The wrong question: "Is X bad?". The right question: "Is X worse than the alternative if X wasn't allowed?".

Re:Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick ... by candiodari on Thursday February 15, 2024 @03:09AM (#39380247)
This can result in a race to the bottom, is the argument against it. If we allowed people to live in "capsule hotels" for example.
Re:Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick ... by thereisnospork on Thursday February 15, 2024 @04:21AM (#39380643)
The problem with the argument is that capsule apartments aren't the bottom - living on the street is.

So as a society we've skipped right past bad to horrid while clapping ourselves on the back as if we're doing the 'undesirables' a favor. Abhorrent.

Re:Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick ... by ryandrake on Thursday February 15, 2024 @06:00AM (#39381276)
If capsule housing or cramped tenements were allowed, economics would push already-housed people down into them, rather than raise unhoused people up into them. Everything is a race to the bottom.

For example, let’s say the worst homes in your area legally allowed to be occupied are currently renting for $500/mo. Now capsule housing suddenly becomes legal. They’re not going to magically cost less. Landlords already know the poorest people will at least pay $500/mo, so the capsules will cost that, and the previous worst housing would rise to $750/mo or something.

Re:Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick ... by adrianN on Thursday February 15, 2024 @07:35AM (#39381932)
Presumably supply would rise and competition would lower rents instead of raising them.
Re:Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick ... by hackerlight on Thursday February 15, 2024 @06:20AM (#39381407)
Your conclusion rests on a likely false assumption that things remain expensive in a world where more housing isn't illegal. If capsule (and indeed, all) housing is no longer illegal, the price of everything falls. Regular one-bedroom unit rental will become affordable for the majority of people, so there will be no desire to downgrade to a capsule home. This is not Hong Kong where land is so scarce that even building vertically is insufficient to keep rents low.

A small number of people who have the lowest incomes will probably downgrade to capsule homes, instead of the status quo of living far away from their work. So they'll make a conscious decision to trade-off living space for a shorter commute, and who are you to tell them that's not in their best interest? Forced hour-long commutes is bad for people's wellbeing, which is what's happening in the status quo.

This discussion is a bit of a tangent because most housing proponents don't care if capsule homes are illegal. All they want is for normal units to not be illegal. That will get you 95% of the way there, capsule homes is nothing more than a theoretical curiosity outside of extremely dense countries like HK.

Re:Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick ... by candiodari on Thursday February 15, 2024 @06:53AM (#39381616)
Yeah, sorry, but this argument totally stops making sense when you consider:

1) safety: obviously people would not be safe in capsule hotels. This cannot be changed, and would fundamentally alter society if it became popular

2) It applies to other forms of safety. Collapse safety? Why? It's cheaper without (and the state will have to pay most damages anyway). Medical safety (e.g. anti-mold regulation)? Why?

Such a policy will not drop prices, except the sticker price and will cause untold misery in society. We can discuss individual measures, perhaps, but not that a lot of these price increasing really contribute to society.

Re:Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick ... by hackerlight on Thursday February 15, 2024 @07:36AM (#39381940)
I was talking purely about the economics, challenging the idea that rent would remain unchanged, and so everyone would want to downgrade to a capsule dwelling. This is not true. Rents will go down, and a lot of people that can't currently afford a 1 bedroom unit will now be able to afford one.

As a matter of policy, I am in favor of safety regulations. If that makes capsule dwellings illegal then so be it. We can solve the housing crisis without resorting to capsule dwellings.

Re:Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick ... by danaris on Thursday February 15, 2024 @09:47AM (#39383281)
> The wrong question: "Is X bad?". The right question: "Is X worse than the alternative if X wasn't allowed?".

While you're not wrong in many cases, you do have to be careful with making this sort of rubric your universal rule. It can trap you in a local maximum that is vastly inferior to what things could be if you acknowledged that and were willing and able to accept the temporary reduction in quality to move to what is, objectively a better situation.

Re:Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick ... by breather on Thursday February 15, 2024 @12:39AM (#39379500)
Funny, I feel the same way about developers. Urban planners tend to hate them too.
Re:Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick ... by epistasis on Thursday February 15, 2024 @12:43AM (#39379525)
Developers built everything, existed long before planners ever did, and despite their greed and avarice, actually produce things that people want, and live in.

Planners can claim none of this. They have complete control over the developers, but tend to make the outcomes worse both for the people buying homes. No matter the intention of the developer or the planner, the planner has made things worse and the developer better.

Re:Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick ... by breather on Thursday February 15, 2024 @12:47AM (#39379551)
> Developers built everything,

Well, no, this is just straight-up not true, that's just a description of recent american history.

Re:Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick ... by epistasis on Thursday February 15, 2024 @12:52AM (#39379577)
You must have some weird definition of "developer" then, something that's not compatible with what I'm talking about.

Who built all the brownstones in New York, for example? Today, they'd be called developers. What is your definition?

Re:Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick ... by breather on Thursday February 15, 2024 @01:43AM (#39379813)
Again, american cities are a small fraction of the world.
Re:Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick ... by chii on Thursday February 15, 2024 @06:51AM (#39381607)
So other than naturally formed caves, everything else is built by, you guessed it, developers. It's just an umberalla term - you might call it builders in some other parts of the world.
Re:Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick ... by tgaj on Thursday February 15, 2024 @07:21AM (#39381815)
It could be a problem of a definition. In my country, a "developer" is someone who constructs buildings not for himself but to sell them to others. If I build a house for myself, then I am not a "developer". The difference is that "developers" only care about profit. For example, I wouldn't want to antagonize future neighbors, but the "developer" doesn't care about that.
Re:Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick ... by SamBam on Thursday February 15, 2024 @08:31AM (#39382447)
Ok, but still by that definition every apartment building is built by a developer. So all the beautiful buildings in Paris or Rome or wherever. So they are hardly a modern American phenomenon.
Re:Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick ... by epistasis on Thursday February 15, 2024 @10:22AM (#39383743)
You know who else only cares about profit? Farmers. Bakers. Grocers. Etc.

People needs homes. If somebody is "antagonized" because somebody else now has a home, the problem lies solely, fully, and 100% with the person that feels "antagonized." Its not an appropriate or socially acceptable response.

Re:Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick ... by adrianN on Thursday February 15, 2024 @12:51AM (#39379570)
Who needs a canalization or public transport anyway?
Re:Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick ... by refurb on Thursday February 15, 2024 @03:09AM (#39380248)
I mean go to a low income country and you can see the results.

No setbacks, sidewalk encroachment (building or parking), restaurants on the ground floor of houses (i remember going into one huge restaurant and seeing the family in a separate room watching TV). Bizarre road layout, etc,etc

Not all bad, but man is it chaotic.

Re:Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick ... by Animats on Thursday February 15, 2024 @12:29AM (#39379439)
Using the first floor of mixed-use buildings being commercial is a huge flop in the SF bay area. Drive down El Camino on the SF peninsula. Look at all those ground floor vacancies, low-end tenants, and oversized "leasing offices" to fill up space.
Re:Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick ... by electrondood on Thursday February 15, 2024 @01:30AM (#39379747)
I think the issue there is actually the cost to lease vs the amount of traffic. On El Camino there's usually not enough foot traffic to sustain a business in one of those locations.

If you go to similar shopping centers like San Antonio in MV, you can see those first floor units are pretty consistently occupied by businesses.

Re:Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick ... by Animats on Thursday February 15, 2024 @02:12AM (#39379937)
That's because those places have more parking.
Re:Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick ... by eastbound on Thursday February 15, 2024 @02:18AM (#39379970)
That’s a good point; An urban ecologist once told me the most environmental-friendly city is made of 6-floor buildings (like Paris):

- Ground floor: Shops,

- 1st and sometimes 2nd floor: Offices, lawyers, doctors, companies,

- 3-6th: Housing.

It was environmentally friendly because the density allows people to drop the car and go shopping and work with 15 minutes of their home.

Re:Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick ... by doikor on Thursday February 15, 2024 @02:38AM (#39380087)
> - Ground floor: Shops,

Only the street facing side. A lot of the buildings in Paris have an inner yard where the ground floor has apartments.

Re:Commercial property deals in the US are starting to pick ... by thuuuomas on Thursday February 15, 2024 @09:27AM (#39383074)
I love to live within smelling distance of the urban slaughterhouse. I love not knowing what chemicals may be wafting out of tanks buried, forgotten beneath my brownfield luxury condo.