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Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by gkoberger on Thursday February 08, 2024 @12:26PM (#39304757)
Imagine running a company. That's hard enough.

Now imagine your market share is down a ton (and decreasing), and there's no clear way to change that trajectory.

Then imagine that despite being CEO, you're owned by a non-profit. So, you have a boss, and your boss has different goals than you do.

Then imagine attracting and retaining top talent, while not being able to give out equity.

Then imagine that your product is free. You can't charge more for it; you give (almost) everything away for free and there's no clear path to monetization.

And then imagine that almost all of your money comes from your biggest competitor, and your only lever is to negotiate (from a position of weakness, because they're much bigger) a deal every 3 years in order to keep paying your employees.

Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by ZeroGravitas on Thursday February 08, 2024 @03:13PM (#39307023)
I don't have any insider knowledge but:

> your only lever is to negotiate (from a position of weakness, because they're much bigger) a deal every 3 years in order to keep paying your employees.

It's entirely possible that Mitchell Baker was responsible for getting hundreds of millions of dollars extra for Firefox when they switched search provider and then back, invoking a clause in their agreement with Yahoo.

Which seems like some pretty skilful playing of a bad hand.

Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by jonathankoren on Thursday February 08, 2024 @11:23PM (#39311368)
The fact that they switched from Yahoo after the Yahoo sale to Verizon was announced, and got Yahoo to keep paying them was a great move.

I talked to one of the corporate lawyers that worked that deal, and told him it was a genius move.

Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by Dylan16807 on Thursday February 08, 2024 @12:30PM (#39304841)
That sounds really hard!

But I don't see why it needs particularly rare skills.

And lots of people do really hard jobs for much much much less money.

Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by ryandrake on Thursday February 08, 2024 @12:53PM (#39305125)
The necessary skills are not rare, but the roles are rare so people start to think the skills are rare. I get a lot of grief for this opinion but I think most HN'ers could do the job of "CEO of whatever company they currently work for". It's not rocket science. We have this mythology around CEOs that they are such outlier smart, special, hardworking people, but really it's just that the top of the pyramids contain few people.
Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by ethbr1 on Thursday February 08, 2024 @01:28PM (#39305597)
Shadow the CEO of a well-run large company around for a couple of weeks.

I wouldn't want that job, and I'm not sure I could do it.

Always being on-call, and having to constantly context switch and synthesize questionably-accurate material from reports, to make important decisions.

(And that's not even broaching the political tasks... which are required, because it's the only way to become and remain CEO)

Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by ryandrake on Thursday February 08, 2024 @02:25PM (#39306358)
Definitely wanting the job is separate from can do the job, although to be honest, I would be happy to get paid $6+ million for the job "Fail to turn around Mozilla". Heck, I'd be willing to do it for 10% of that compensation.
Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by ethbr1 on Thursday February 08, 2024 @02:40PM (#39306571)
That's glib.

No one is hired to fail, and no one tries to fail.

They're hired to try and succeed, and sometimes it doesn't go that way.

Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by pooper on Thursday February 08, 2024 @06:23PM (#39309211)
It is not glib. Here is how I would put it.

> I wouldn't want that job. However, with the right team I AM sure I could do it.

Remember as a tech lead, if you are heroically writing a lot of code burning the midnight oil, banging out tickets and completing sprints by yourself, you are failing. As a CEO, the more you are doing the more you are failing. This is probably why it is so hard for people like us to he leaders. It is very difficult to delegate and not meddle with things. It is easy to say let go but very hard to actually do so.

Remember that even Steve Jobs delegated all operations and supply chain stuff to tim cook. And that's Steve Jobs! We are not Steve Jobs.

There is no reason why my manager should make more money than me.

Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by palata on Thursday February 08, 2024 @05:23PM (#39308608)
> I wouldn't want that job, and I'm not sure I could do it.

There are many jobs that I wouldn't want and that are not paid 6M a year. There are some things that I can do that not everybody can do, and still I am not paid 6M.

You can try reverting it: a CEO earning 6M a year could not necessarily be a firefighter. Yet firefighters are not paid 6M a year. And they actually risk their life.

Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by ethbr1 on Saturday February 10, 2024 @07:46PM (#39331693)
There's ability, demand, and impact.

IMHO, the stronger argument against CEO compensation is that the delta (in company performance) between a great CEO and a midling CEO isn't equal to their compensation.

If a firefighter sucks at their job... someone dies. But (unfortunately, if we're being honest) that's worth less than +/-1% of large company performance.

(Personally, I think public safety, medical non-doctors, and teachers should all be paid a lot better)

Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by bawolff on Thursday February 08, 2024 @01:58PM (#39306012)
> And lots of people do really hard jobs for much much much less money.

I would consider most min wage jobs harder than what i (computer programmer) do. Compensation is often inversely correlated with how shitty the job is.

Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by robertlagrant on Thursday February 08, 2024 @05:06PM (#39308433)
Hard as in "undesirable" isn't the same as in "the skills to do it are rare", though.
Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by JumpCrisscross on Thursday February 08, 2024 @12:40PM (#39304953)
> don't see why it needs particularly rare skills

I don’t either! But apparently they’re rare. One pays dearly when trying to go cheap, or broaden the pool in seemingly innocuous ways, in executive recruiting.

> lots of people do really hard jobs

Fortitude is necessary, but by itself insufficient.

Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by Dylan16807 on Thursday February 08, 2024 @12:43PM (#39304991)
> I don’t either! But apparently they’re rare. One pays dearly when trying to go cheap, or broaden the pool in seemingly innocuous ways, in executive recruiting.

Do we have good evidence for that, or is it just what the people that hire CEOs tend to think?

When I think of disastrous CEOs that I've managed to hear about, they weren't cheap. They got paid huge amounts to cause their disasters.

Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by bluGill on Thursday February 08, 2024 @01:24PM (#39305546)
There is the problem. There is evidence a great CEO can make a difference. And if a great CEO wants millions they are worth it. However nobody knows how to tell a great CEO from bad.
Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by nativeit on Thursday February 08, 2024 @03:57PM (#39307589)
That sounds like the old advertising idiom, “Half of all advertising works, but you will never be certain which half,” or something similar anyway. I think there is a very distinct “lightning in a bottle” component to great and/or successful companies. Combinations of effective teams, aligned motivations, good timing, a leader who can identify and leverage all of those elements to great effect, and some X factors that are simply unknowable. That may be just a slightly more nuanced way of saying they’re lucky, but also good fortune in externally changing scenarios is certainly one of those unknown factors. I think the ability to recognize, organize, and effectively leverage all of the elements such that a company is well-positioned if/when the external factors line up in their favor is what defines a great CEO. I think that ability is akin to naturally talented musicians. Most people can, with enough time and effort, learn to play a guitar very well. They still won’t be Jimi Hendrix. The downside is, you can’t force it or fake it (at least not for very long). I think of parallels with the difference between the British and American versions of the TV show “Top Gear” that was being produced in the mid ‘00s. The original British show was the lightning in a bottle, and became one of the most successful TV series on the planet. The lifeless copy they attempted in the US followed the recipe meticulously, and was cringeworthy.

(Edit: Missed the word “never” up top)

Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by jodrellblank on Thursday February 08, 2024 @09:55PM (#39310850)
> "I think there is a very distinct “lightning in a bottle” component to great and/or successful companies."

Watching The Grand Tour[1] season 1 it feels stilted, awkward, like they are reciting their lines for some forced humor while Amazon showers cash and flashy cars all around trying too hard. If it was like this with three unknown people I wouldn't bother - I'm only watching on the hope that the lightning in a bottle sparks up again as they settle in, because the highs of Top Gear were good - friends messing about for a laugh, daring bold ideas, beautiful filming and settings.

e.g. scaling the Guallatiri volcano https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOcJOn0nxnU

Crossing salt flats in Botswana: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OETj9aTYO2Q

Driving to the North Pole: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNkvASxfEWQ

Driving the Bolivian Death Road: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daQcxVqQJsI

Building their own amphibious cars and crossing the English Channel in them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTVPPTV-bQM

Trying to run out of fuel before arriving at the Chernobyl exclusion zone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YtVV1VJ4f8

Getting lost trying to leave a traditional Italian city: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_eLViH7_YI

Budget Italian Supercars: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuCff8nCxBU

[1] When they stopped Top Gear, Amazon snapped up Clarkson Hammond and May to make a Top Gear knockoff for Amazon Prime, that's The Grand Tour.

Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by JumpCrisscross on Thursday February 08, 2024 @01:21PM (#39305518)
> Do we have good evidence for that, or is it just what the people that hire CEOs tend to think?

I think so, and it’s largely in the attrition of start-ups due to executive leadership breaking down. Start-up founders are already a rarefied group; that so many break down or flip out or can’t handle all the balls in the air is telling. (There is plenty of academia on the topic. It doesn’t support massive paydays. But certainly single-digit millions, i.e. life-changing money for someone who may already be rich.)

> got paid huge amounts to cause their disasters

Look at the state of the company they took over. Golden parachutes are often required to woo top talent to a trash pile because top talent knows the world is stochastic.

Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by Dylan16807 on Thursday February 08, 2024 @02:30PM (#39306439)
> Look at the state of the company they took over.

Yes, I'm specifically thinking of companies that were doing fine when they took over.

Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by satvikpendem on Thursday February 08, 2024 @01:59PM (#39306023)
Why would those skills not be rare? How many people do you know that can do all that? I know vanishingly few and I suspect most do too.
Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by fabrice_d on Thursday February 08, 2024 @12:50PM (#39305091)
Imagine being both the CEO of the corp and the chairwoman of the non profit. Damn!

Remember Mitchell killed FirefoxOS (I know you were likely happy about that @gkoberger), and now Mozilla is complaining about not getting level playing access to other OSes. Guess what, when you have no platform, you'll be forever a second class citizen.

Baker is a good motivational speaker, but should never have been allowed to made any operational decision.

Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by wkat4242 on Thursday February 08, 2024 @12:55PM (#39305143)
Technically FirefoxOS is still around: https://www.kaiostech.com/ . It's now an OS for feature phones. It's no longer owned by Mozilla but they did have a lasting impact, that's what I mean. And many of their throwaway projects have gone that way. For example Firefox VR browser is now Wolvic. https://wolvic.com/en/ . It's the great thing about open source, the work is not lost.

But Mozilla had no chance in the real smartphone market. If Microsoft couldn't manage to attract developers with their billions and dedicated hardware, Firefox supplying only the OS and no hardware just had zero chance to make it mainstream. It would have been relegated to the same position as Sailfish: A cool curiosity but not interesting enough for anyone but some hobbyists to develop for.

I don't think it was a bad idea trying: At that time the duopoly in the smartphone market was not as firmly established and there were other open projects like Ubuntu as well. They might have attracted a huge party like Samsung (after all, they did go for Tizen in the end!) and things might have worked out differently. But the choice to drop it was inevitable at that point.

Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by jacquesm on Thursday February 08, 2024 @04:16PM (#39307831)
I use Kaios every day and I'm happy it exists but I'd have been even happier if it had just been stock Ubuntu with some phone specific bits thrown in. I actually bought a phone like that but it eventually stopped being serviced. But that was the best phone I ever had, this one is a distant 3rd after all my previous Nokias.
Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by LtWorf on Friday February 09, 2024 @01:22AM (#39311982)
so, you want mobian
Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by teddyh on Friday February 09, 2024 @05:24AM (#39313396)
Or possibly PureOS.
Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by fabrice_d on Thursday February 08, 2024 @01:24PM (#39305535)
FxOS failed commercially because it tried to be a "me too" product, with the same distribution strategy as Android that relies a lot on carriers. For that to work you need to get support from key apps in the carriers markets, and FxOS never managed to get Whatsapp on board.

KaiOS got Whatsapp support thanks to shipping in India with a single carrier (Jio) that has a very large user base. Deployment in the rest of the world has been a struggle and the company is not in great shape.

All that to say that Mozilla could have kept the lights on for a couple more years and get access to large markets. Hard to predict what would have happened but we certainly would have more diversity in the OS space.

Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by ethbr1 on Thursday February 08, 2024 @01:34PM (#39305679)
The only path to FirefoxOS success would have been if someone like Samsung hitched their wagon to it.

Which would have been because they thought they could make more money using it than Android.

Which probably wouldn't have bode well for user-friendly changes to the base image.

Android's value prop to manufacturers was "Was to sell a lot of mobile phones, but not have to pay for most of the development? And get a working Maps solution? Here you go." Which Google could afford to torch money on.

Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by fabrice_d on Thursday February 08, 2024 @01:40PM (#39305752)
I think you're wrong but we'll never know :) What is true is that some of the interest from carriers for alternative OSes was indeed that they didn't like to be handcuffed to Android and iOS.
Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by ethbr1 on Thursday February 08, 2024 @02:37PM (#39306551)
Are we using carrier and manufacturer differently?

And I'd imagine carriers don't, as they'd no doubt love to go back to the feature-phone days, but they're all (individually) too weak to do anything about it.

Only aggregated can they offer the resources to support an alternative.

Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by geoelectric on Thursday February 08, 2024 @01:46PM (#39305833)
Worth noting Fabrice was one of the primary devs on FxOS, and I believe the primary dev on KaiOS. I'm pretty sure he's familiar with the history.
Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by gkoberger on Thursday February 08, 2024 @03:09PM (#39306972)
No, I'm not happy. I was gobsmacked by how smart the people working on it were (you included), and was so proud to work a few desks away from such amazing engineers.

My thoughts that FirefoxOS was mismanaged from an executive level are in no way a reflection of the work I saw coming out of your team, and I took no pleasure in it shutting down. I felt the executive team got caught up too much with things like presenting at Mobile World Congress, at the cost of a ton of focus.

Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by doktrin on Thursday February 08, 2024 @02:02PM (#39306061)
Even if Mozilla reallocated all their resources and dedicated themselves 100% to building a mobile OS, I’d personally be surprised if they were able to secure any meaningful market share. Talk about playing against a stacked deck.
Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by phatfish on Thursday February 08, 2024 @05:08PM (#39308458)
FirefoxOS was a moon shot. The sort of project a profit making company burns a few 10s of million on in the hope it somehow works out.

Mozilla should have been focusing on the one thing anyone cared about, the browser. Rust and Servo were the correct risks to take. But I know, hindsight is 20/20.

Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by RHSman2 on Thursday February 08, 2024 @03:00PM (#39306859)
Those constraints can be turned into positives depending on your point of view. Imagine what you could do?
Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by palata on Thursday February 08, 2024 @05:27PM (#39308650)
I think that the "it's paid a lot because it's super hard" is generally a bad excuse. Many things are super hard, many people make a lot of sacrifices to be among the bests at what they do. Yet they don't earn that much.

When the thing you are good at is being a CEO (as opposed to, say, being a teacher), then you are very lucky. Because other CEOs before you managed to make it acceptable to earn an indecent salary for just doing a job. Ok, let's say they don't sleep at all, so they can work 2-3x as much as the average people. Are they paid 2-3x more? No! They're paid orders of magnitudes more. That's indecent.

Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by Denzel on Thursday February 08, 2024 @06:02PM (#39309006)
So what solution are you proposing?

Right now, you’re simply complaining about a perceived problem without offering any logical argument for an alternative.

I do not mean to sound flippant, I’d like to hear what your alternative ideas are.

Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by palata on Thursday February 08, 2024 @07:02PM (#39309548)
> So what solution are you proposing?

To the problem of human beings receiving way too much money for the time they spend doing their job?

Easy: crazy taxes. If the company really wants to increase the salary up to some limit, knowing that 95% of that increase will go into taxes, then good for them. Otherwise they can do something else, like increasing other salaries or hiring people.

Also if you ask me, there should be laws for the difference between the lowest and the highest salary in a company. I.e. "the highest salary cannot be more than X times the lowest salary". Which means that if the CEO wants to earn more, they need to raise the lowest salaries.

Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by Denzel on Thursday February 08, 2024 @08:16PM (#39310179)
To a first order approximation you’re advocating for communism over capitalism in that you believe the will of the State (funded by “crazy taxes”) takes precedence over the will of the People, represented by local decisions made in a free market.

Consider that you could attempt to solve your perceived problem in multiple ways within the existing structure. 1) Garner public support and lead a campaign to change our laws to be more inline with the thoughts you have around increasing taxes; 2) Exploit the market opportunity you’ve identified (of paying CEO’s less to pay others more) by starting companies that follow this ethos, attract talent, and deliver value to consumers; 3) Attain a leadership position as CEO or in the Board of Directors for a company where you can take responsibility and change these perceived compensation problems; so on and so forth.

The responsibility lies with you to bring the change you seek.

Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by palata on Friday February 09, 2024 @06:15AM (#39313680)
Do you even know what communism is? Or are you one of those people who calls everything that is on the left of the current US president "communism"?
Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by 2devnull on Friday February 09, 2024 @09:52AM (#39315361)
There has never been real communism so how could anybody hope to know what is? Literally.
Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by palata on Friday February 09, 2024 @10:12AM (#39315559)
It is an ideology, it can perfectly exist only in books.
Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by Denzel on Friday February 09, 2024 @06:11PM (#39321656)
It’s telling that you haven’t actually responded to anything on the basis of your proposal.
Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by palata on Friday February 09, 2024 @08:16PM (#39322500)
Sorry I did not understand that. What do you mean?
Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by gottorf on Thursday February 08, 2024 @07:49PM (#39309947)
> there should be laws for the difference between the lowest and the highest salary in a company

I'd imagine that at a place like Mozilla (effectively a high-tech nonprofit primarily staffed by white-collar workers), this difference in compensation is actually not that big, compared to, say, a business that hires hourly workers.

Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by account42 on Friday February 09, 2024 @06:50AM (#39313867)
You're right, you probably need the law to also include contractors for it to have teeth.
Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by nemothekid on Friday February 09, 2024 @01:07AM (#39311907)
I'm not sure how increasing CEO taxes helps Mozilla's position at all. I feel like something has taken a left turn in this thread.
Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by wkat4242 on Friday February 09, 2024 @01:13AM (#39311935)
Such taxes would apply to their competitors too and level the playing field
Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by palata on Friday February 09, 2024 @06:12AM (#39313663)
> I'm not sure how increasing CEO taxes helps Mozilla's position at all.

Who said it would? Though I may argue that it is not clear at all if you really get the best person for the job when you make them rich just by getting the job. Not saying that all the CEOs are here "just for the money", but... well if they are not here for the money, why do they get that kind of salaries?

> I feel like something has taken a left turn in this thread.

I feel like when people are talking about the salary of a CEO and whether they "earned it" or not, I am entitled to say that no human being can ever deserve that kind of salary. Just like a liberal could say "they don't deserve it because they did not please the shareholders that much".

Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by Denzel on Friday February 09, 2024 @06:17PM (#39321706)
You’re entitled to free speech in the U.S. (if that’s where you reside) of course, however that doesn’t mean you’re right. To the contrary, the market, represented by millions of individuals’ actions, disagrees with you about who “deserves” what compensation.
Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by palata on Friday February 09, 2024 @08:20PM (#39322534)
Are you implying that because "the market" (with the laws that govern it) ends up in a situation where some people get that kind of salary, then I must be wrong in thinking that no human being deserves that kind of compensation?

Because if that's the case, I think it is completely stupid. You don't get to make up rules and then say that I am objectively wrong because your made-up rules disagree with me.

Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by mnau on Friday February 09, 2024 @03:11AM (#39312590)
Brendan Eich (former CTO & CEO of Mozilla) managed to get 1% of marketshare for Brave from zero.

FF has 3.3%.

I think FF would have done mych better under his leadership.

Re:Mozilla names new CEO as it pivots to data privacy by AndrewKemendo on Thursday February 08, 2024 @06:41PM (#39309367)
And the whole point is that paying someone 6M means you should be able to figure out how to solve for these problems

The idea that nobody possibly could reconcile these issues and yet should still be paid egregiously is absurd