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Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by JusticeJuice on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @12:05AM (#39186568)
I wrote a thesis on EHR's 7 years ago. They really haven't seemed to improve much. I personally think a big part of the issue is actually scope, these systems are expected to do everything - medical notes, script ordering, appointment management, billing of course, and 3000 other things. This weirdly leads to a distribution problem, you can't be a serious competitor in just one area, you have to do everything. Only the monolith can shift the monolith. Then combined with the risk (or perceived risk) of working with medical data, and you're left with something that just never improves.

If your curious, here's where I discuss these points in the thesis https://barnett.surge.sh/welcome/complexity.html

Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by FwarkALark on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @12:14AM (#39186604)
Is this something where a public competitor might help? It surely can't be worse than private industry.
Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by timekiller on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @12:27AM (#39186669)
Oh it could be much worse. You should see how bad government run HIE’s are.
Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by happytiger on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @12:32AM (#39186694)
To back you up. They are profoundly worse. It’s an area where private dominates entirely, as the government HIEs are almost unusable.
Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by FwarkALark on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @01:46AM (#39187085)
Again, I don't see how a private industry per se could even possibly be worse given the demand for a profit margin. Your beef is with some other aspect of this process.
Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by pas on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @08:02PM (#39198343)
the same higher-level forces shape the public project's fate into certain doom that led to hospitals buying the absolutely shittiest tech.

because there's no clear signal (in the private sector there's some drive for sales, market share, profit), only made-up hyperpoliticized bullshit requirements and maybe some barely coherent vision.

as long as there's not a clear technocratic organization with sufficient independence and competence these projects are rudderless yellow duckies on the sea of tragisocial medicine mismanagement madness.

no party involved really has enough resources to deliver something nice. it's like high speed rail in the UK or the US. as a public project it's already stillborn, because it's too expensive to do it right (or if it would get the right amount of funding it immediately attracts unlimited scope creep, and the usual vultures show up, it becomes a typical everything bagel project, solve EMR but also education and childcare and whatnot), and to do it efficiently it would require draconian standardization and heroic amount of data migration work.

and on top it gets over promised and under staffed and so on

Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by nradov on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @12:28AM (#39186675)
There is (or was) a public competitor. VistA was largely developed by the federal government. Some organizations still use it and it's available for free, but independent reviews have generally rated it as worse than the private industry products.

https://worldvista.org/AboutVistA

Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by phonon on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @04:09AM (#39187918)
Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by mr_toad on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @12:41AM (#39186755)
I have to wonder how independent those reviews are when medical staff consistently rate it higher than commercial products, the system has won multiple awards, and when the VA tried to implement a commercial replacement it failed.

Vista is public domain, so there’s no money in it and no-one to take management out for expensive lunches.

Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by FirebornX on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @01:16AM (#39186922)
People generally like VistA a lot more than what the DoD has been pushing the VA to replace it with: EHRM.

https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-23-106685

https://www.moaa.org/content/publications-and-media/news-art...

Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by tpmoney on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @12:38AM (#39186739)
Interestingly the linked article seems to be singing praises of VistA, though it's unclear whether the author has actually used the system themselves. They link to an unsourced article with that claims it tops reviews, but clicking through to the various related articles seems to have a consistent theme of people not liking VistA all that much.
Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by JusticeJuice on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @12:49AM (#39186793)
The UK government tried this, wasted 12.4 billion pounds over 10 years, and ultimately wrote most the project off. The dream of an EHR is just deceptively tricky, so many smart, well-funded, well-connected teams have tried and failed.

ref: https://barnett.surge.sh/welcome/intro.html

Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by penteract on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @04:08AM (#39187909)
Following the sources listed there, "wrote most of the project off" seems like an overstatement.

> The MPA found that there have been substantial achievements which are now firmly established, such as the Spine, N3 Network, NHSmail, Choose and Book, Secondary Uses Service and Picture Archiving and Communications Service. Their delivery accounts for around two thirds of the £6.4bn money spent so far and they will continue to provide vital support to the NHS. However, the review reported the National Programme for IT has not and cannot deliver to its original intent.

Of the rest of the £12.4bn, £3.4bn is "expenditure by local NHS organisations, for example on local IT and training and ensuring compliance of local systems with Programme delivered systems", which probably isn't entirely wasted either.

Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by Flibble21 on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @03:12AM (#39187551)
I have a friend that has worked on this project for over a very long time and the issue is not that the UK tried to implement EHR records from scratch but rather that GPs (General Practitioner, think local doctors surgeries) had mostly all implemented EHR systems already. The issue is that these systems are created by several (6-8 if memory serves) different private companies and the UK Government can't force the GP to change or adopt a standard system.

The different GP EHR systems record patient information in their own ways. Think of a database entry for chemo medication, one EHR provider having a db column labeled "Drug X" with the patient entry listed as "Yes" with separate columns for dosage, frequency etc. Another will list the drug, dosage and frequency in the same field. Even if they have the same column e.g. frequency, different EHR's may list "5d" or "5 Days". There are also spelling errors, doctor's personal shorthand abbreviations etc.

The problem is that the UK interoperability system has is to implement a safe translation layer that will allow records to be transmitted between these systems that doesn't kill anyone. The astonishing amount of different types of information that are used and all the oversight needed to ensure that information is accurately transferred has made this project way more costly and time consuming that originally thought.

There is, of course, waste and profiteering, both internally to the Government project (huge contract salaries) and also with the private EHR companies (overruns and re-builds are all handsomely paid for).

Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by pjc50 on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @04:59AM (#39188226)
> The issue is that these systems are created by several (6-8 if memory serves) different private companies and the UK Government can't force the GP to change or adopt a standard system.

Yeah, the UK healthcare system is only mostly nationalized.

I do think these IT issues could be fixed, but only if there was someone at Cabinet level who knew what operations management was, which we're unlikely to get in the forseeable future.

Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by dieortin on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @01:48AM (#39187100)
If I’m not mistaken, the Spanish healthcare system has a fully electronic medical record.
Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by dgellow on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @03:04AM (#39187505)
Germany too
Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by Naijoko on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @03:57AM (#39187844)
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

This is a joke. We want to have this but its like everything in germany if its about something digital. Its a fucking mess. Everyone can read it. Most doctors dont use it and even many insurance dont use it... its a fucking mess

Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by dgellow on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @09:05AM (#39190233)
Ok, but it’s digitalized, I didn’t say it was good. You can now directly go to an Apotheke with your insurance card and get your medication, even the prescription is digitalized.
Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by Naijoko on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @02:32AM (#39201083)
ok thats true and that does work. But the system in the background is a mess.
Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by mcosta on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:39AM (#39188916)
In reality it has several
Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by FwarkALark on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @01:40AM (#39187056)
Again, this can't be worse than private industry—that profit margin will guarantee this. I guarantee there is some other disease to blame for the waste—probably politicians of some sort invested in industry.

Of course, this does demand citizens give a shit, which seems hopeless at this point.

Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by thaumasiotes on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @12:55AM (#39186828)
Private industry is already worse than the older system of keeping notes with pen and paper. (Source: my mother operated her own medical practice and applied for a government subsidy to switch over to electronic medical records, then complained about how it reduced the functioning of her practice.)
Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by redsoundbanner on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @01:00AM (#39186853)
Why was the government subsidizing that?
Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by cfu28 on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @01:07AM (#39186883)
Probably as part of the meaningful use policy in the US. Early adaptors were initially incentivized to move to EMRs off paper charts.

Today the incentive no longer exists. Instead theres a penalty in the form of reduced Medicare/medicaid reimbursement for practices that don’t comply.

Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by redsoundbanner on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @01:52AM (#39187116)
Great answer. Thanks for not just downvoting me.
Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by thaumasiotes on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @05:12AM (#39188314)
In what sense is that an answer to "why were they doing that?" The entirety of the answer does nothing but give a name to the policy. "Why" would usually be understood as a question about the reasons behind the policy.

"The government was subsidizing the abandonment of paper medical records because they had a program in place to do that" is something you knew before you asked the question.

Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by thaumasiotes on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @01:02AM (#39186860)
They decided that medical records should be electronic rather than paper. Why do they do the other things they do?
Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by htechenjoyer on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @09:51AM (#39190703)
Is it? There's trade-offs of course with everything. There's certainly many aspects in which a medical practice only using pen and paper is worse. How about transferring records to other institutions? Or taking your work home with you? Do you want to lug boxes of records home which may get lost (HIPAA breach) so that you can finish up your notes at home? What about making copies for a patients right to access? What about auditing changes or access to the record to enforce data security, integrity, and compliance?

What's the timeline of evaluation of reducing the functioning of her practice? If it was just a recent change then I would expect growing pains. I have many close personal relationships with healthcare workers and when their electronic health record system is down, having to use pen and paper leads to drastically worse functioning within their job. So the same claim but in the opposite direction. The reality is doing something you're not used to is harder.

Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by YetAnotherNick on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @01:38AM (#39187044)
Is there any industry in which public competitor is better than private one?
Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by FwarkALark on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @01:43AM (#39187074)
I mean, all industries? The profit margin guarantees this. Anyone who has worked in private industry will verify its utter incompetence in the long term.
Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by YetAnotherNick on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @01:47AM (#39187096)
Can we talk about particular examples? I know for a fact that in my area private train ticket booking app is vastly better than government one. So at least there is an exception.
Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by gdfgfdjfd on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @01:59AM (#39187153)
You learned a new phrase, "profit margin", and you keep mentioning in every comment of yours. It's supposed to be somehow profound, allegedly every time you say it the superiority of communism must become crystal clear. And yet you're delusional, my friend. That clear connection you have in mind exists only in your head. We don't have those voices whispering things.
Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by JusticeJuice on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @02:55AM (#39187451)
This the most dramatic HN comment I've ever read I've been laughing for like 10 mins straight hahaha.
Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by boxed on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @02:15AM (#39187252)
In Swedens capital region they failed with this too. It's dominated by a system that is largely quite well polished but has some scaling issues that has lead to down times. The region decided to develop their own in cooperation with other regions, but instead of just hiring two-three developers and putting them in a room inside some small hospital, they decided to make a Grand Political Project out of it.

Billions of Swedish crowns later, having written ZERO lines of code, they quietly cancelled the entire thing. This enormous boondoggle didn't even make the news because the waste was all man-hours and consultancy, and not a building or something the media found sexy.

I think a big problem is that politicians need Grand Political Projects to get reelected, but that's not how you build software. Or make meaningful small incremental improvements to science, infrastructure, schools, etc. The incentives are wrong...

Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by kakoni on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @11:44AM (#39276596)
Interesting, what was this project called?
Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by atlasunshrugged on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @08:00AM (#39189582)
I believe the Estonian government has long had at least a basic EHR that they use across their public and private medical facilities that is part of their larger e-government system

https://e-estonia.com/solutions/healthcare/e-health-records/

Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by sixothree on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @12:11AM (#39186594)
Yea. But in that time there has been an absolute revolution in what can be done with that data. FHIR specifically has completely changed the landscape.
Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by nradov on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @12:29AM (#39186679)
FHIR is great for interoperability but it doesn't really do anything for the EHR user experience.
Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by ahoka on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @08:25AM (#39189810)
Decoupling the EHR from the client can pave the way for better user experience.
Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by JusticeJuice on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @12:45AM (#39186780)
Yes. FHIR was pretty well established when I was writing the thesis, but I am very pleased to see it get more and more usage since then. Apart from interoperability the opportunities to do much better data mining from free-text medical notes with AI, are huge now. Back when patient prescription lists ot structured, so many new drug interactions were found, now there's the chance to do similar stuff from open medical records.

Patient-accessible medical systems are more common now too, which is great. EHealth got way more common. At the end of the day though, what your doctor is clicking on still sucks, which is the sad part.

Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by Zanfa on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @02:50AM (#39187415)
This is absolutely true in my experience as well.

Ironically, it's also a somewhat of a circular problem, given the inherent complexity of medical processes, every organization has organically formed their processes over decades. When choosing software solutions, they pick software that caters to their specific needs, rather than change processes to fit existing software. This results in vendors building endlessly configurable products that add even more complexity. As a potential new entrant, this means you'd need to not only support N processes, but something like (number of clients) * N processes.

There are some initiatives towards EHR interop (e.g. FHIR), but from what I've seen so far, they suffer from similar problems. As in the standard is made so flexible to cover all situations that you can make things that are 100% compliant, but completely incompatible.

Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by JusticeJuice on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @03:10AM (#39187544)
Yeah, I've seen the term "sociotechnical" used to describe this relationship between software and process. A process is built in part for a system, and therefore the system in part needs to support the process. Changing the setup isn't just a technical challenge, it's a challenge in creating sociotechnical change. I think it's a very easy thing to underestimate.
Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by Terr_ on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @04:44AM (#39188129)
> Yeah, I've seen the term "sociotechnical" used to describe this relationship between software and process.

Maybe "cybernetic", although that has largely been taken over by sci-fi connotations.

Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by jharsman on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @03:20AM (#39187601)
This is very true. There several reasons why most EHRs are so bad:

1) The people who pay generally do not use the system. This is true for enterprise software in general and leads to vendors prioritizing having all features organizations ask for (regardless if they are a good idea or not) and also prioritizing features management deems important over fundamental workflow, UX and polish in general.

2) EHRs are very large and complex and can almost always gain more customers by gaining even more features and replacing smaller more specialized systems. A typical EHR will have features for ordering tests and viewing results (for clinical chmistry, microbiology, radiology and more special stuff like physiology etc), appointments and resource planning (rooms, equipment, personnel, staffing), clinical notes including computing scores and values based on other values, medication (ordering, administering, sending prescriptions electronically) and administration (admissions, discharge, payment, waiting lists). That is a lot of different stuff!

3) Once a vendor wins a contract and installs their EHR, very little can be gained by improving the lives of users. Contracts and sales cycles are very long, and the vendor gains very little financially by improving the system. So many vendors are focused on charging money for customer specific features or adding new features to win new tenders.

I'm not sure what the solution is, public alternatives have failed spectacularly since they are typically run by public administrators who have even less of a clue how to develop software and what users want than the vendors.

Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by Terr_ on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @04:37AM (#39188090)
> So many vendors are focused on charging money for customer specific features or adding new features to win new tenders.

In turn, this enterprisey anti-pattern creates unfocused products which can be configured to sort-of-solve every niche customer requirement that might block the sale.

The result is a massive ball of muddy configurations and feature-flags, so that learning isn't very portable and backend integrations are very painful.

Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by namdnay on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @08:44AM (#39190008)
I would add the point that these dynamics are also present for any large IT system. Just search for people having issues migrating to SAP or Amadeus or whatever
Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by lotsofpulp on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @04:48AM (#39188148)
>I personally think a big part of the issue is actually scope, these systems are expected to do everything

If I were to guess, the goals of admin and workers might not match because the primary goal of the admins deciding and implementing the EHR is to avoid liability for the organization in the event of an error, but errors are inevitable. And if liability for individual errors are so costly (as they are in the US for healthcare stuff), then the primary goal for the workers also becomes avoiding liability.

In this situation, I can envision something like a crew of people working in the hospital that do good, quick, but undocumented work 99% of the time, are now being slowed down by documentation or other cover their ass needs. Obviously, it is possible that the new documentation needs are also uncovering malpractice that went unnoticed before. The question is are the tradeoffs worth it, which does not have a simple, objective answer.

Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by Gravityloss on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:15AM (#39188735)
Re:Why Everyone Hates the Electronic Medical Record by demondemidi on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @08:05PM (#39198362)
They’ve improved tons since the 1990s. Let’s have some perspective.