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Re:Ask HN: How to Get into Quantitative Trading? by chronic74930 on Friday January 26, 2024 @04:40PM (#39148864)
> You should know this.

Anyone who worked in quantitative trading knows you can consistently outperform the S&P500/VTI/SPY over 20+ year horizons.

Buy and hold passive US equity index funds gives a Sharpe ratio of ~0.7 with annual return of 8-10%. Meanwhile, high frequency trading does upward of Sharpe 10+ with 40-60% annual return, with 10+ year track records, of course.

Hell, even Citadel hedge fund, after their ridiculous 50% performance fee, returned 19% _after fees_ annually to outside passive investors over 20 years. And this is billions of AUM, so the ”quant don’t scale” argument goes out the window.

Why is nobody talking about this? Because the elite politicians and businessmen invest in these very quant funds, and thus suppress any news or regulation. Sucks for middle class professionals with <$5M net worth.

Re:Ask HN: How to Get into Quantitative Trading? by panarky on Friday January 26, 2024 @04:47PM (#39148981)
Nobody's saying that alpha doesn't exist.

But before you unleash your automated proprietary model, you should be able to explain why you think you have any edge whatsoever over your far better funded, far more experienced counterparties.

And, no, getting great results from backtesting your model is not evidence of edge in the future against adversaries with access to better data than you have.

Re:Ask HN: How to Get into Quantitative Trading? by eps on Friday January 26, 2024 @05:45PM (#39149838)
> you should be able to explain

RenTech famously tried to understand exact mechanics of their successful models after they (models) proved to be successful. Sometimes they succeeded.

Re:Ask HN: How to Get into Quantitative Trading? by jairuhme on Friday January 26, 2024 @05:49PM (#39149891)
Citadel isn't making the bulk of their alpha from simply finding an edge, its making trades in dark pools based on trade information they receive for executing trades. The individual trader won't be able to make trades at the speed required when finding small price discrepancies, nor would they have the capital to really earn anything.
Re:Ask HN: How to Get into Quantitative Trading? by affyboi on Saturday January 27, 2024 @09:14AM (#39155695)
Citadel securities is the market maker, Citadel is the hedge fund and doesn’t have access to data from the other side
Re:Ask HN: How to Get into Quantitative Trading? by SturgeonsLaw on Sunday January 28, 2024 @04:50AM (#39164059)
Did they pinky promise not to access the data or are there some actual barriers in place?
Re:Ask HN: How to Get into Quantitative Trading? by User3456335 on Monday January 29, 2024 @05:47AM (#39174891)
It being illegal seems like a pretty big barrier to me.
Re:Ask HN: How to Get into Quantitative Trading? by worik on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @06:27PM (#39197450)
> It being illegal seems like a pretty big barrier to me.

That speaks volumes about your integrity. Good on you!

But it is not true.

Re:Ask HN: How to Get into Quantitative Trading? by User3456335 on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @10:45AM (#39205141)
I wouldn't be so sure about that. Also, even if people cross the barrier it doesn't mean it is not there or isn't big. But thanks for the compliment!
Re:Ask HN: How to Get into Quantitative Trading? by metabro on Friday January 26, 2024 @04:59PM (#39149167)
How many hedge funds are there? A few thousand? How many beat the s&p? Of those how much can be attributed statistically to skill rather than luck?
Re:Ask HN: How to Get into Quantitative Trading? by chronic38202 on Friday January 26, 2024 @05:39PM (#39149760)
> How many hedge funds are there? A few thousand? How many beat the s&p?

The average index fund fails to outperform the S&P.

How many passive index funds are there worldwide? Thousands? How many beat VTI or S&P500? Answer: QQQ and small cap.

> Of those how much can be attributed statistically to skill rather than luck?

If you are picking S&P as your champion, then I am allowed to pick a hedge fund as my champion.

And Citadel outperforms S&P over 20+ year horizon. Citadel 19% vs S&P 10%.

Re:Ask HN: How to Get into Quantitative Trading? by metabro on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @12:36PM (#39206762)
>The average index fund fails to outperform the S&P

This is a straw man as most people understand investing in indexes as buying a an index that tracks the s&p.

>If you are picking S&P as your champion, then I am allowed to pick a hedge fund as my champion.

You are making a false equivalence. The s&p is a proxy for the us market and therefore is a benchmark. It captures the captures the bets placed by all market participants including citadel.

Citadel does something beyond buying and selling equities to generate that alpha. And it’s likely not just restricted to equities. Nonetheless they are an outlier. Which is the point I was making. Most people won’t do better than the us market in aggregate over a similar stretch of time.

Re:Ask HN: How to Get into Quantitative Trading? by MuffinFlavored on Friday January 26, 2024 @05:45PM (#39149835)
Slightly related: what are "big players" more likely to do to get exposure to the S&P directionally:

1. SPY shares long/short on margin/leverage

1. SPY options

1. SPX options

1. /ES e-mini futures

1. a blend of all

Does one trump another in popularity?

Re:Ask HN: How to Get into Quantitative Trading? by jleahy on Friday January 26, 2024 @05:50PM (#39149898)
ES trumps the others.
Re:Ask HN: How to Get into Quantitative Trading? by MuffinFlavored on Friday January 26, 2024 @05:53PM (#39149931)
Nice, thanks. I wonder by how much. Here is why I ask:

a lot of technical analysis is done on psychological levels related to (in my opinion) SPY strike prices/SPX strike prices/SPX levels.

Yet, /ES is typically 20 points ahead of SPX. For example, there can be a battle zone of support/resistance at 4900 on SPX, but /ES blew past it a day ago. I wasn't sure if one had more power/prominence than the other.

Re:Ask HN: How to Get into Quantitative Trading? by jleahy on Friday January 26, 2024 @06:10PM (#39150111)
The spread between SPX and ES is purely mechanical. It’s a function of expected future interest rates and dividends over the remaining life of the future.

There is no such thing as support/resistance in reality.

Re:Ask HN: How to Get into Quantitative Trading? by MuffinFlavored on Friday January 26, 2024 @07:27PM (#39150886)
> There is no such thing as support/resistance in reality.

Where would you say 80% of the daily trade volume comes from on average?

The powers to be that I can think of:

institutional investors / fund managers slowly reallocating (selling stuff off, buying stuff) daily

high frequency trading algorithms trading shares back and forth to each other in an artificial way to generate synthetic volume/movement

market makers reacting to option chain volume to remain neutral

"hedge funds" / "quant funds" running their algorithm

what do those algorithms look for at the "minute by minute" scale if not things like support/resistance/patterns/volume?

Re:Ask HN: How to Get into Quantitative Trading? by jleahy on Saturday January 27, 2024 @03:09PM (#39159319)
In my experience a large % of the daily trade volume comes from me.
Re:Ask HN: How to Get into Quantitative Trading? by nurettin on Saturday January 27, 2024 @01:29AM (#39153171)
it's usually front month ES, depending on volume. And MES for smaller accounts.
Re:Ask HN: How to Get into Quantitative Trading? by MuffinFlavored on Saturday January 27, 2024 @02:41PM (#39159071)
I'd love to talk to you more. I tried to make a Mastodon account to reach you. I just have questions about how you might know this/what else I could learn from you. I don't trade or anything like that, just interested in learning if you'd like to chat more.
Re:Ask HN: How to Get into Quantitative Trading? by nurettin on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @03:47PM (#39209171)
I don't trade, either. I just code custom data collection, quantity allocation, future roll and automated execution algorithms for certified trading advisors.
Re:Ask HN: How to Get into Quantitative Trading? by chaosmonger7 on Friday January 26, 2024 @06:37PM (#39150428)
Yea because I single person is just like Citadel.

Your post is completely ridiculous.

Re:Ask HN: How to Get into Quantitative Trading? by 1letterunixname on Friday January 26, 2024 @05:41PM (#39149793)
Individuals tends to lack the data sources, low latency access, strats, controls, deep bench, and deep pockets to make serious money. It's less risky to pool money with other smart rich bastards at shops that perform. Division of labor, specialization of trade.
Re:Ask HN: How to Get into Quantitative Trading? by affyboi on Saturday January 27, 2024 @09:15AM (#39155705)
> Hell, even Citadel hedge fund, after their ridiculous 50% performance fee

Do you have a source?