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Re:US Cities Could Verge on Becoming Ghost Towns by 2100, St... by debacle on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @11:17AM (#39015055)
America can't afford to maintain cities and it can't afford to maintain the infrastructure required for suburbs. There is a serious breakdown in our ability to simply exist as municipalities.

It's a complex issue and many people are sure they know the solution, but the reality is that the only way we know how to govern ourselves anymore is scraping the bottom of the barrel with knee-jerk responses to acute events.

Edit: I can tell by both responses that I wasn't clear enough in my main comment. Civically, America's representative governments have collectively established a policy of maintaining function just slightly above total catastrophe, while robbing taxpayers blind through nearly every single initiative they fund.

Re:US Cities Could Verge on Becoming Ghost Towns by 2100, St... by wang_li on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @11:44AM (#39015373)
The solution is to limit the expense of non-contributing people in our cities. Fact of the matter is is that certain lifestyles require a certain amount of ability to produce value. No one gets upset when you say that a middle-class person can't buy a luxury automobile without greatly increasing the ability to earn, but the same principle applies to the basics as well.

Seattle and King County were spending a cumulative $100,000/year per homeless person. That's higher than the per capita income of the county. No way to sustain that in the long term. If you aren't prepared to tell high-school dropouts, drug addicts, and the lazy, that they shouldn't aim for more than an ultra-high density apodment and generic brand everything and no kids, then you can't have a high standard of living city for anyone.

Re:US Cities Could Verge on Becoming Ghost Towns by 2100, St... by wing-_-nuts on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @12:15PM (#39015819)
While I agree homelessness is a problem, it's a small financial burden compared to the unsustainable growth of infrastructure. Maybe it's time to finally get serious about treating mental health? Whenever I see comments like this, I always note there doesn't seem to be any broader solution than 'ship them somewhere else and make them someone else's problem'
Re:US Cities Could Verge on Becoming Ghost Towns by 2100, St... by beaeglebeached on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @12:38PM (#39016142)
You would have to make benefits conditional on satisfaction of mental health treatment compliance to get anywhere.
Re:US Cities Could Verge on Becoming Ghost Towns by 2100, St... by wing-_-nuts on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @12:58PM (#39016406)
I think you could follow a carrot and stick approach to reduce the largest harms of homelessness. Get caught using drugs or alcohol in public, or harassing people? Jail, with deferment into a mental health program (which is also available to all homeless folks). Stay in the mental health program, and you get housed, for free at first, and then a small percent of your income once you get a job.
Re:US Cities Could Verge on Becoming Ghost Towns by 2100, St... by seanmcdirmid on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @02:39PM (#39017978)
> it's a small financial burden compared to the unsustainable growth of infrastructure.

American cities aren't really growing their infrastructure that much (that's one of the problems), they are just maintaining what they already have. But ya, we will spend billions on a link from Ballard to West Seattle here, and it won't be ready until sometime after 2040.

> Whenever I see comments like this, I always note there doesn't seem to be any broader solution than 'ship them somewhere else and make them someone else's problem'

That's because while the problem is national, the resources expected to solve it are local. Since the problem is also mobile (as anyone taking a greyhound bus to Seattle could see), at least not being a preferred destination for the problem is a valid strategy. Shipping it off is also valid, but mostly the chronic homeless will go places where they can survive (looking for better weather, generous social services, and police that aren't going to throw them in jail for doing fent on the bus).

Re:US Cities Could Verge on Becoming Ghost Towns by 2100, St... by AnimalMuppet on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @02:42PM (#39018018)
> So shipping it off somewhere else, or at least not being a preferred destination for the problem, is a valid strategy.

Is a valid local strategy. Not a national one. The cities are just responding as best they can to the brokenness of the national (lack of) response.

Re:US Cities Could Verge on Becoming Ghost Towns by 2100, St... by seanmcdirmid on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @02:51PM (#39018155)
I'm not sure how that differs from my response, but sure. You can't really blame these places for dealing with it as best they could, and the cities that don't do that (Seattle) are only rewarded with an increasing share of the problem.
Re:US Cities Could Verge on Becoming Ghost Towns by 2100, St... by AnimalMuppet on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @04:47PM (#39019601)
It only differs in a bit of emphasis. You're emphasizing that the local response is reasonable; I'm emphasizing that the national response is a catastrophic failure. (You said that "the problem is national"; I just thought that point was worth emphasizing more strongly than you did.)
Re:US Cities Could Verge on Becoming Ghost Towns by 2100, St... by seanmcdirmid on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @04:48PM (#39019613)
I thought that was obvious, but sure. National problems can't be solved at the local level, so only national solutions should be seriously considered as having a chance. In the meantime, localities need to do what they need to do to survive.
Re:US Cities Could Verge on Becoming Ghost Towns by 2100, St... by soco on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @12:33PM (#39016073)
100k/per year for homeless person? Do you realize that by giving that amount to most of them would get them OUT of the homelessness by next year (or sooner)? Yes there are the ones unable to get out of the pit, but most would. I would think if the measure of your services is how many homeless you support, then you'd increase the number of homeless,right? It's all KPIs and perfectly in the spirit of the OC.
Re:US Cities Could Verge on Becoming Ghost Towns by 2100, St... by beaeglebeached on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @12:53PM (#39016334)
I would pass law, average public spend per homeless can't exceed average public spend per public school student without annual public vote.

Let them explain, ever year, why your child is less deserving of the public investment.

Re:US Cities Could Verge on Becoming Ghost Towns by 2100, St... by seanmcdirmid on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @02:43PM (#39018035)
That isn't true. The really bad cases will trash/burn down their housing in a few months of obtaining it without lots of live in resources to make that not happen (or renovate/rebuild after it does happen). If it were just housing, we could solve this problem more easily, but we have decided as a society to combine it with our drug abuse problem and have decided for some odd reason to treat the harder cases first and wait for the easier cases (just need housing) become hard cases (now addicted to drugs) before doing anything about it.
Re:US Cities Could Verge on Becoming Ghost Towns by 2100, St... by soco on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @08:36AM (#39027442)
Yes I get it, we shape our policies based on "the really bad cases". This reminds me of a - probably largely exaggerated - comparison: one party denies help to 10 persons out of worry one might be a fraud, the other gives help to 10 persons out of worry one might need it badly.
Re:US Cities Could Verge on Becoming Ghost Towns by 2100, St... by seanmcdirmid on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @02:27PM (#39032223)
> Yes I get it, we shape our policies based on "the really bad cases". This reminds me of a - probably largely exaggerated - comparison: one party denies help to 10 persons out of worry one might be a fraud, the other gives help to 10 persons out of worry one might need it badly.

You are ignoring the 9 people they did help that way, but they didn't stay homeless for very long and aren't counted as chronically homeless. The one person that did burn down their hotel room is chronically homeless and very difficult to help...well, they are chronically homeless after all.

Not really exaggerated at all, I'm guessing you live in a nice suburb or somewhere without a chronic homelessness problem? Or you are just trying to gaslight us into thinking our property crime/drug problems aren't as extreme as we see them to be?

Re:US Cities Could Verge on Becoming Ghost Towns by 2100, St... by fragmede on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @03:20PM (#39018553)
It would, but the homeless-industrial complex couldn't stand for that.
Re:US Cities Could Verge on Becoming Ghost Towns by 2100, St... by scotty79 on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @11:52AM (#39015490)
> per homeless person

Oh, I thought that by non-contributing you meant tax dodging millionaires that incentivise vast array of useless luxury services and extract undue rent from the populace through their various schemes.

Re:US Cities Could Verge on Becoming Ghost Towns by 2100, St... by wang_li on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @11:59AM (#39015573)
Your average unemployed homeless person is dodging enormous amounts of taxes simply by not having an income. Do you also complain about them or is your bitterness simply a result of envy?
Re:US Cities Could Verge on Becoming Ghost Towns by 2100, St... by nerb on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @12:10PM (#39015760)
This reeks of being an outside observer. WA has no income tax, but has a sales taxes which homeless people are subjected to. The only taxes are from property which renters also don't pay. When people complain about the rent seekers it's from a place of empathy, not envy. The extraction of wealth done by them always has and always will be more negatively impactful than homeless folks.
Re:US Cities Could Verge on Becoming Ghost Towns by 2100, St... by pnutjam on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @01:19PM (#39016620)
Renters pay property taxes. I know I do.
Re:US Cities Could Verge on Becoming Ghost Towns by 2100, St... by fragmede on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @03:17PM (#39018528)
You also pay for your landlord's vacations, and their food. And their drug and alcohol and gambling addictions.
Re:US Cities Could Verge on Becoming Ghost Towns by 2100, St... by scotty79 on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @12:04PM (#39015654)
You can't dodge something you don't owe. Homeless pay all taxes they owe. Mostly salea tax I imagine.
Re:US Cities Could Verge on Becoming Ghost Towns by 2100, St... by wang_li on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @12:26PM (#39015965)
The vast majority of wealthy people who are commonly accused of not "paying their fair share" and of dodging taxes are simply structuring their financial lives in ways that allow them to reduce their tax obligations. Very few are engaged in actual tax evasion and all the rest pay all the taxes they owe.
Re:US Cities Could Verge on Becoming Ghost Towns by 2100, St... by soco on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @12:36PM (#39016117)
Structuring by moving their wealth to Bahamas which is indeed fully legal because they are the ones writing same laws (or golfing with the authors) - something the homeless cannot. So this legal trick allows them to fully enjoy their wealthy status locally while paying close to zero taxes. While supporting the Bahamas economy, yay I guess.
Re:US Cities Could Verge on Becoming Ghost Towns by 2100, St... by telotortium on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @12:16PM (#39015829)
And they get $100k/year of services. Their life is still not particularly good, but mismanagement can burn even the largest resource pile.
Re:US Cities Could Verge on Becoming Ghost Towns by 2100, St... by beaeglebeached on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @12:30PM (#39016025)
Christ. At that point just hand them the 100k. The addicts will quickly end the public problem and those who just needed a starting seed will emerge anew with at least a van to live in .
Re:US Cities Could Verge on Becoming Ghost Towns by 2100, St... by DemocracyFTW2 on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @02:21AM (#39024384)
just burn the lazy and roast the rich then?
Re:US Cities Could Verge on Becoming Ghost Towns by 2100, St... by wing-_-nuts on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @12:08PM (#39015714)
Everyone that wants to know more about this owes it to themselves to watch this strong towns video

It's a grim situation that doesn't even require decline, just the end of growth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tI3kkk2JdoI

Re:US Cities Could Verge on Becoming Ghost Towns by 2100, St... by 303uru on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @11:40AM (#39015308)
>America can't afford to maintain cities and it can't afford to maintain the infrastructure required for suburbs.

Big piece right there. If cities can finally stop subsidizing suburbs, they can probably shore themselves up just fine.

Re:US Cities Could Verge on Becoming Ghost Towns by 2100, St... by rayiner on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @11:47AM (#39015413)
New Yorkers saving a few dollars in taxes instead of shipping them upstate won’t be enough to address the fact that it costs $3-5 billion to build a mile of subway in the city these days.
Re:US Cities Could Verge on Becoming Ghost Towns by 2100, St... by renewiltord on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @11:56AM (#39015540)
Something people have discovered is that if you offer to spend more on something, the guy who is selling it to you will gladly accept.
Re:US Cities Could Verge on Becoming Ghost Towns by 2100, St... by skissane on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @08:12PM (#39021735)
Compared to many comparable countries, the US has such a huge number of local governments, with so many functions devolved to the local level.

If state governments took over more of the functions of local governments, or if local governments were merged – such as a single local government for an entire metro area – that might solve many of these problems.

When the state government takes over, the suburbs contribute to the state-wide tax base. Similarly, when the suburbs are merged into a single metro-wide local government, their local taxes now start contributing to services in other parts of the metro area which they commute to or rely on.