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Re:Minimum Wage Clock by slibhb on Thursday January 04, 2024 @04:13PM (#38872343)
People like to talk about inequality but absolute poverty seems like a more important target. Satya Nadella having more money than me doesn't make my life worse; I'm more concerned about the availability of jobs, food, housing, etc.

That said, CEO salary does strike me as strange. Who needs 8 million per year + stock? I'd think more CEOs would voluntarily take a pay cut.

Re:Minimum Wage Clock by oneeyedpigeon on Thursday January 04, 2024 @04:16PM (#38872367)
The Spirit Level [1] makes a good argument for why more equal societies benefit everyone within them. At the very least, I think it's fair to say that "Satya Nadella having more money than me doesn't make my life worse" is not definitively true.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spirit_Level_(book)

Re:Minimum Wage Clock by NegativeLatency on Thursday January 04, 2024 @04:39PM (#38872637)
Even if any singular ultra wealthy person is doing nice things, you'll still have bad actors like the Koch brothers who are actively trying (and succeeding) to subvert our government systems to their own benefit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_activities_of_the_Ko...

Which is why we need governmental solutions, laws, taxes, etc and can't rely on just good will.

I havent read the book you recomended, but I will check it out. I'd also recomend the book "On Corruption in America: And What Is at Stake" as it's a great description of how global elites have largely captured government for their own ends since the gilded age.

Re:Minimum Wage Clock by EnigmaFlare on Thursday January 04, 2024 @05:12PM (#38873015)
That's just political campaigning, isn't it? How is that "subverting" or "bad actors"?
Re:Minimum Wage Clock by scottyah on Thursday January 04, 2024 @05:49PM (#38873378)
Because they're the bad guys
Re:Minimum Wage Clock by Red_Leaves_Flyy on Thursday January 04, 2024 @10:45PM (#38875471)
Because the rule of law democratic processes are being tossed aside to accommodate said bad actors hence the apt moniker.
Re:Minimum Wage Clock by EnigmaFlare on Saturday January 06, 2024 @12:56PM (#38893513)
I didn't pick that up from the referenced page. This work was illegal?
Re:Minimum Wage Clock by flandish on Thursday January 04, 2024 @10:50PM (#38875496)
Anyone ultra wealthy has obtained it through active or past exploitation.

Profit, dividends, and buybacks are unpaid wage.

Re:Minimum Wage Clock by codegrappler on Friday January 05, 2024 @06:48AM (#38878147)
Yet you think government corruption wouldn’t become an equal (or worse) problem?
Re:Minimum Wage Clock by amelius on Thursday January 04, 2024 @04:21PM (#38872424)
I'm ok with people working hard and getting paid for it. I'm not ok with those people using their money against me in any way, which is what still happens and nobody talks about.
Re:Minimum Wage Clock by digging on Thursday January 04, 2024 @05:03PM (#38872915)
> I'm ok with people working hard and getting paid for it

Is that an accurate description of CEOs worth billions of dollars though? How hard are they supposedly working? I'm probably lazier than most of them as an IC with disabilities and non-work interests... but it's not humanly possible that they get ~40,000 times as much done in a day as I do.

Re:Minimum Wage Clock by Snow_Falls on Thursday January 04, 2024 @05:23PM (#38873128)
If hard work were accurately linked to monetary benefit, poor African substinamce farmers would be some of the richest people on earth. Clearly that isn't the case, money come from more thanjust hard work. Luck has a lot to do with it, such as not being born an African substinamce farmer.
Re:Minimum Wage Clock by Pyrobyte on Thursday January 11, 2024 @05:10AM (#38950168)
But isn't there a great deal of skill involved, depending on the skill level and how rare a certain skills is. People will be payed a lot more. It must take a great deal of stress and difficulty to get a business to a scale where their CEO is making billions.
Re:Minimum Wage Clock by nec4b on Friday January 05, 2024 @11:15AM (#38880686)
>> but it's not humanly possible that they get ~40,000 times as much done in a day as I do.

But you do understand why a popular singer or a football player get that much more than you?

Re:Minimum Wage Clock by jdietrich on Thursday January 04, 2024 @05:18PM (#38873083)
The "Re-analyses and alleged failures to replicate" section of that Wikipedia article is really rather important - the idea that inequality causes problems independent of poverty relies on a lot of questionable assumptions and analyses.
Re:Minimum Wage Clock by margalabargala on Thursday January 04, 2024 @04:25PM (#38872469)
I think you and the person you replied to are talking about two different things here.

OP is saying "in terms of goals, the end goal should be reduction of poverty, not reduction of rich people".

You're saying "in reality, data says that reduction of rich people tends to correlate with reduction of poverty", thus opening up reduction of rich people as one potential path towards the reduction of poverty.

I don't think it's been definitively demonstrated that the existence of rich people necessitates the existence of poverty. I would agree that, in reality, the creation of rich people tends to also lead to the creation of poverty.

Re:Minimum Wage Clock by digging on Thursday January 04, 2024 @05:07PM (#38872952)
> You're saying "in reality, data says that reduction of rich people tends to correlate with reduction of poverty", thus opening up reduction of rich people as one potential path towards the reduction of poverty.

That may be true, but I personally also think curbing the wealth of the extremely wealthy is a worthwhile goal in its own right. It's dangerous to give individuals so much power, which is one of the most common lessons in the last 10,000 years of media and also blatantly obvious from the ways many billionaires (and non-billionaires, frankly) use that money to manipulate, harm, disenfranchise, and silence the public.

Re:Minimum Wage Clock by NegativeLatency on Thursday January 04, 2024 @04:43PM (#38872673)
There's rich people, and then there's the ultra rich people. It just doesn't seem possible to become a billionaire through ethical means.
Re:Minimum Wage Clock by renewiltord on Thursday January 04, 2024 @05:13PM (#38873020)
James Patterson just wrote books people like and he’s a billionaire. Are murder stories unethical or something?
Re:Minimum Wage Clock by Philpax on Thursday January 04, 2024 @05:20PM (#38873100)
Does he write his own books, though? [0] [1] [2]

It's his name on the front of the book, but he is not necessarily the primary author. That sounds a little unethical to me.

[0] https://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/books/380231/James-P...

[1] https://theconversation.com/why-you-dont-need-to-write-much-...

[2] https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/featu...

Re:Minimum Wage Clock by renewiltord on Thursday January 04, 2024 @05:37PM (#38873255)
Stephen King then? Or J K Rowling? They became billionaires off their work and wrote all their own work if image rights are unethical to you.

Taylor Swift, perhaps? Paul McCartney. You only need one example to disprove the case.

It doesn’t seem ridiculous that if you make something and charge $10 and 100 million people pay you that you’re necessarily doing something unethical.

Re:Minimum Wage Clock by jjj123 on Friday January 05, 2024 @10:02AM (#38879758)
I don’t think any of them have done something unethical to earn their billion, but artist billionaires are certainly outliers.

They’re such outliers that it’s still a safe assumption someone has done something exploitative if they’re a billionaire.

Re:Minimum Wage Clock by htss2013 on Thursday January 04, 2024 @10:29PM (#38875380)
Why can't you be a millionaire who becomes a billionare through compound interest? If university endowments can do it so can individuals.
Re:Minimum Wage Clock by smegger001 on Saturday January 06, 2024 @06:04PM (#38896497)
Several reasons firstly Universities arent mortal individuals that live a 80 to at most 110 years, these are institutions that many of which predate the countries they are in.

Secondly they are receiving endowments from many individuals and organizations on top of tuitions and cuts off the top of grants researcher working there receive.

Thirdly they arent just getting simple compound intrest from money setting in a savings account instead they run private equity funds and hedge funds, which are themselves morally suspect

Re:Minimum Wage Clock by oh_sigh on Thursday January 04, 2024 @04:49PM (#38872743)
What society reduced it's rich people and increased the average richness? When I think of the concept my mind jumps to stalin eliminating the kulaks, or mao and the cultural revolution, or pol pot, which ended up helping destroy their society, not make everyone wealthier.
Re:Minimum Wage Clock by beaeglebeached on Thursday January 04, 2024 @04:55PM (#38872827)
When the rich get rich via redistribution of value rather than generation of value, average richness rises after those rich are deposed.
Re:Minimum Wage Clock by oh_sigh on Thursday January 04, 2024 @05:18PM (#38873078)
What examples are there of that?
Re:Minimum Wage Clock by beaeglebeached on Thursday January 04, 2024 @05:26PM (#38873147)
As crazy as it sounds, the cuban revolution up until the late 80s. While their communist economic system was far from ideal, it saw significant rising GDP/cap vs the days when farm labor were like slaves and their output redistributed to petty farm masters under Batistas favored rich men.
Re:Minimum Wage Clock by wavemode on Thursday January 04, 2024 @09:17PM (#38874930)
Do you have a source for that? Most accounts I've read regarding that period talk about massive decreases in food production after the government took over those industries.
Re:Minimum Wage Clock by beaeglebeached on Thursday January 04, 2024 @10:16PM (#38875298)
tiny.cc/c0jsvz

They had a rough first 10 years breaking even vs GDP/c under Batista but there was rapid advancement after that until collapse of the Soviet Union.

Re:Minimum Wage Clock by jjj123 on Friday January 05, 2024 @10:03AM (#38879778)
There were obviously other factors at play, but the US was at its most equal just after WW2, which was also a very prosperous time.

Source: Capital by Piketty

Re:Minimum Wage Clock by COGlory on Thursday January 04, 2024 @04:54PM (#38872807)
This logic only applies when the economy is growing faster than inflation. As soon as it levels off (or dips below) as it has since the 70s, this becomes patently false.
Re:Minimum Wage Clock by underbluewaters on Thursday January 04, 2024 @04:27PM (#38872494)
This is very not true since many (most) things we spend money on are in limited supply. I can make what I think is good money, but if remote FAANG workers decide to settle nearby then I suddenly can't afford a house. Same for automobiles after COVID, meat at the market, etc.
Re:Minimum Wage Clock by warner25 on Thursday January 04, 2024 @04:34PM (#38872585)
Yes, I've lived in Hawaii and coastal California where the availability of housing does seem to be heavily impacted by very wealthy people being able to buy up second and third (multi-million dollar) homes. A lot of regular wage earners (including professionals with six-figure incomes) are priced out of the market and these homes sit empty for most of the year; the owners are so wealthy that they don't even bother to rent them out when they aren't using them. Jobs are available, but people can't afford to live near their jobs.
Re:Minimum Wage Clock by beaeglebeached on Thursday January 04, 2024 @04:43PM (#38872668)
Hawaii has an abundance of underutilized land through a combination of bad zoning/regulation (anti-market violence) and civil rights violations ( Hawaiian 'homelands' which reserves much public state owned lands to only people 'of the blood of the [right] races').

The housing issues are at best partially caused by the rich; plenty of places to put a cheap tar paper shack but for whatever non-market reason you cannot.

Re:Minimum Wage Clock by ryandrake on Thursday January 04, 2024 @05:22PM (#38873120)
Thanks for this comment. I was going to make a similar one, but you beat me to it. Standard of living tends to be relative because of gentrification. Say you're making $X/yr and spend $Y/yr on groceries, gas, housing, and so on. Then a bunch of people making $5X start moving in to your neighborhood, slowly prices for everything are going to rise and now you're still making $X/yr but costs are approaching $5Y/yr on all your stuff.

Also, at least in the USA, money is efficiently convertible to and from political power. So outsized wealth translates into outsized political power. Satya Nadella having far more money than I means he also has far more political clout than I have.

Re:Minimum Wage Clock by AlexandrB on Thursday January 04, 2024 @04:18PM (#38872386)
> Satya Nadella having more money than me doesn't make my life worse;

Are you sure about that? What if he spends that money supporting political figures and economic policies that make your life worse?

Re:Minimum Wage Clock by kurisufag on Thursday January 04, 2024 @04:27PM (#38872500)
following this line of logic would mean that /anyone/ having more capital than you is evidence of wrongness, including social capital.
Re:Minimum Wage Clock by digging on Thursday January 04, 2024 @05:11PM (#38873004)
Yeah, pretty much, it's wrong to hand disproportionate power to individuals without checks on how that power is used to influence society, and we have very few such checks on extremely large amounts of money.
Re:Minimum Wage Clock by AlexandrB on Thursday January 04, 2024 @04:51PM (#38872776)
It's not evidence of wrongness, but money is power. Especially in a post "Citizens United" world. My point is that saying that the vast income inequality being discussed does no harm to those at the bottom is inaccurate. At the very least it reduces the ability of the average person to influence their own government.
Re:Minimum Wage Clock by Shacklz on Thursday January 04, 2024 @04:56PM (#38872839)
There's a difference between 'having more capital' and 'having absolutely absurd amounts of capitals'.

If you look at income distribution graphs of the last few decades and the political influence those in the highest percentiles wielded, it's not entirely unfair to question whether this might make the life of the average citizen "worse".

Re:Minimum Wage Clock by bparsons on Friday January 05, 2024 @11:49AM (#38881186)
You are getting close.
Re:Minimum Wage Clock by MuffinFlavored on Thursday January 04, 2024 @04:54PM (#38872803)
> Satya Nadella having more money than me doesn't make my life worse; I'm more concerned about the availability of jobs, food, housing, etc.

Does Satya Nadella not giving all of his extra monies to better causes and instead keeping it for himself make the lives of others (those in poverty) worse? Or "not better"? aka "billionaires choose to retain some portion of their earnings/wealth instead of dedicating it to poverty"

Then the question becomes "why do we expect those with a lot of money to selflessly not want to keep the money for themselves and instead give back/give it away"

Re:Minimum Wage Clock by izzydata on Thursday January 04, 2024 @05:03PM (#38872917)
Having some amount of more money than you doesn't make your life worse, but eventually it does. I don't mind people having millions upon millions of dollars and having lots of houses and cars and things. However, once you have enough money to start affecting politics than it can very easily make your life worse.
Re:Minimum Wage Clock by rhplus on Thursday January 04, 2024 @05:10PM (#38872990)
Who needs 8 million per year + stock?

Two words: generational wealth. Such CEO salaries are legacy builders. That's why no-one in their right mind would turn it down.

Re:Minimum Wage Clock by DonnyV on Thursday January 04, 2024 @05:21PM (#38873110)
Reducing the wealth of the ultra rich is not just about resource allocation. Its also about how much power a single person should have within the community they live in. With that kind of money people can buy off regulators, politicians, law enforcement, whole towns, financial intuitions , etc. You really don't want a person or group of people to have that much power over a community.
Re:Minimum Wage Clock by madsbuch on Thursday January 04, 2024 @05:27PM (#38873171)
> Satya Nadella having more money than me doesn't make my life worse;

That is simply not true. Money is not an absolut good, but relative. When a few people own a large portion of money, that affords them the power to decide what people do and usually makes their life worse.

Re:Minimum Wage Clock by engineer_22 on Thursday January 04, 2024 @06:54PM (#38873894)
Well except when they have gained such wealth by providing goods or services in an open competitive market which customers have decided to spend their own wealth on. We must assume people spend their wealth on things that make their lives better.

Fortunately the people living in the United States of America have a society of laws and have been to bat against the monopolistic tendencies of unfettered capitalism at least once before.

Re:Minimum Wage Clock by madsbuch on Friday January 05, 2024 @06:48AM (#38878153)
Well, surely you also calculate that companies pay the true cost of offering those services? As long as Facebook has not paid for their true use of the internet infrastructure, they have been subsidised by the (public) entities who did pay form them.

Maybe a lot of companies (erhm, platform-companies) use unfair market dynamics that should be regulated to yield a fair market place (Eg. European platform directives)?

For an ideal marketplace it should never be possible to accrue extreme wealth as other providers should swoop in when they discover that there are profit opportunities. If the marketplace does not work like that, then regulation should ensure that we go towards an ideal marketplace.

This is, btw, why all industrialised countries have rules against monopolies.

Ie. extreme wealth inequality is a sign of a dysfunctional capitalistic system.

Re:Minimum Wage Clock by LargeTomato on Thursday January 04, 2024 @10:17PM (#38875307)
By your logic the following argument holds.

> Any income differential that results in a power imbalance makes the world worse.

And that might be true but I think it misses the point of the argument. Increasing the quality of life for the global poor is much more important than capping Satya's wealth. There's no equivalence here.

Re:Minimum Wage Clock by madsbuch on Friday January 05, 2024 @06:39AM (#38878079)
This is a question of politics and can not be divorced. Satya's wealth will go down.

Eg. global minimum tax schemes are a promising category og tools to fix this. Indifferently to how you see it, that would decrease somebody's wealth, that they are being taxed on their (foreign) assets.

Increasing quality of life for the poorest people will have to require wealth (and power) redistribution – but that should happen within a framework of fair regulation and fair taxing.

Re:Minimum Wage Clock by wise_young_man on Friday January 05, 2024 @12:06AM (#38875904)
Money is power and the supply is finite. The disproportionate amount of money that CEOs make compared to the average worker is basically enabling modern day kings when you factor in political influence of money. It’s what is fueling continuous wealth inequality levels which keep being broken.
Re:Minimum Wage Clock by HumblyTossed on Friday January 05, 2024 @07:27AM (#38878400)
Those things are not separate. People with money have influence. You think it’s some mean politician who doesn’t want kids to have school lunches? No it’s wealthy people with grown kids who don’t want it and are able to spend $20k per plate at a dinner to tell their puppet politicians they don’t want it.

And I doubt any of them would take a pay cut.

Re:Minimum Wage Clock by bparsons on Friday January 05, 2024 @11:47AM (#38881157)
The political power associated with having tens of billions of dollars is what ends up becoming the reinforcing structural problem with the economy.

Accumulated capital is a type of artificial intelligence. Its goal is to defend its existence and accumulate more. When it accumulates more, it needs to defend itself more. This means tax laws and interpretations that benefit a very certain type of citizen. It means international treaties that allow the movement of capital when the local laws become inconvenient. It means business regulations that protects investor instead of consumer interests.

If you let this go on for a certain amount of time, the structure of the economy starts to make no sense to the vast majority of the participants.