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Re:Polymers capable of killing bacteria without inducing ant... by onetimeuse92304 on Friday December 22, 2023 @02:53PM (#38737916)
The problem with killing bacteria isn't that we are lacking ways to do so. Steeping them in a strong acid should make sure they are killed and they should not find a way to develop resistance to a strong acid.

The problem is we want to kill them, while in human body, without causing too much detriment to the host.

To do this, we essentially need to develop something that will cause serious harm to the bacteria and yet not harm human cells. This means exploiting various differences between bacteria and humans.

A polymer that kills cell walls indiscriminately is hardly an acceptable solution for a human. Yes, bacteria may not be able to gain resistance to it but also it can't ever be used on a real human because mass cell death will cause too much damage to the human.

And "solving the problem of selectivity" will cause bacteria to be able to find their resistance eventually. Because if it is possible to escape your cell wall getting disrupted because you have specific DNA -- a bacteria can gain resistance.

I am firmly of the opinion it is not possible to develop an antibiotic guaranteeing the bacteria will not be able to gain resistance to it.

Simply -- the resistance can be had as evidenced by human cells. And the genetic material is abundantly available to the bacteria -- they are pretty much surrounded by it while in our bodies. There is always going to be non-zero chance for resistance to be acquired by a cell and then spread to the offspring.

Re:Polymers capable of killing bacteria without inducing ant... by BiteCode_dev on Friday December 22, 2023 @03:41PM (#38738438)
The thing is, we need to kill bacterias in many other places than the human body:

- medical equipment: handles for scalpels, syringes, operation tables... All those things we need to clean again and again.

- passage ways: doors, handles, stairs handrails, subway grab bars... All the things that propagate infections in very dense populated areas.

- research fabs: hazmat suits, protection googles, fum hood protections,... All the stuff you want to make sure don't end up cross contaminate your batch or escape.

So it's still very useful.

Re:Polymers capable of killing bacteria without inducing ant... by smileysteve on Friday December 22, 2023 @04:19PM (#38738795)
Out of the body, we have a number of solutions; fire, bleach, uv-c, lye; on your list, only the plastics (personal protection stuff) can't cleaned with these many times around
Re:Polymers capable of killing bacteria without inducing ant... by notamy on Friday December 22, 2023 @04:24PM (#38738842)
Unfortunately, bacteria resistant to bleach are starting to develop https://www.microbiologyresearch.org/content/journal/micro/1...
Re:Polymers capable of killing bacteria without inducing ant... by BiteCode_dev on Saturday December 23, 2023 @04:26AM (#38742846)
You are not going to bleach a handrail 50 times a day, it's not economically viable.
Re:Polymers capable of killing bacteria without inducing ant... by heavyset_go on Friday December 22, 2023 @03:46PM (#38738478)
> - medical equipment: handles for scalpels, syringes,

I hope these things are autoclaved and not just disinfected.

Re:Polymers capable of killing bacteria without inducing ant... by Cerium on Friday December 22, 2023 @04:00PM (#38738623)
They also need to be mechanically cleaned. Simply sterile is not sufficient due to the presence of pyrogens after sterilization.

https://ethidelabs.com/depyrogenation-and-sterilization-for-...

Re:Polymers capable of killing bacteria without inducing ant... by BiteCode_dev on Friday December 22, 2023 @04:01PM (#38738627)
Yes, but once they are out of their container, they start collecting bacterias.

No matter how clean operating rooms are (which can vary a lot), it's never perfectly sanitized.

A cheap way to get many surfaces agent free would be a nice additional safety measure.

Re:Polymers capable of killing bacteria without inducing ant... by EA-3167 on Friday December 22, 2023 @04:07PM (#38738674)
It depends on the instrument, you can't autoclave the scope used for cystology for example, they're generally treated with vaporized Hydrogen peroxide. It's very effective, but not as effective as an autoclave.
Re:Polymers capable of killing bacteria without inducing ant... by hedora on Friday December 22, 2023 @07:17PM (#38740344)
> passage ways: doors, handles, stairs handrails, subway grab bars... All the things that propagate infections in very dense populated areas

Sterilizing those often increases disease spread. By default, they are covered with a microbial community that can outcompete things that are human pathogens.

If you sterilize it, then you’re either leaving a coating of food (mostly dead skin cells) for pathogens to eat, or a coating of nasty poisons that strip the protective barrier off people’s skins, which undermines their ability to fight off what pathogens they do end up touching.

Re:Polymers capable of killing bacteria without inducing ant... by CrHn3 on Friday December 22, 2023 @08:46PM (#38740884)
I believe you mean sanitize, not sterilize.

Probiotics can be applied to mitigate undesirable bacterial growth after sanitizing [1].

1. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7350316/

Re:Polymers capable of killing bacteria without inducing ant... by BiteCode_dev on Saturday December 23, 2023 @04:25AM (#38742838)
Not with such material which kills everything.
Re:Polymers capable of killing bacteria without inducing ant... by londons_explore on Friday December 22, 2023 @03:08PM (#38738053)
> I am firmly of the opinion it is not possible to develop an antibiotic guaranteeing the bacteria will not be able to gain resistance to it.

I think the main approach to prevent antibiotic resistance is coming up with a way to prevent bacteria ever coming across a low dose of the antibiotic. As long as we make sure the dose is either huge or zero, antibiotic resistance shouldn't evolve.

Unfortunately, humans aren't a well controlled lab experiment - and there will always be people taking a half-dose, or flushing the antibiotics down the drain where they get diluted and suddenly trillions of sewer bacteria get exposed to a low dose and suddenly start developing resistance.

Re:Polymers capable of killing bacteria without inducing ant... by onetimeuse92304 on Friday December 22, 2023 @03:21PM (#38738201)
> I think the main approach to prevent antibiotic resistance is coming up with a way to prevent bacteria ever coming across a low dose of the antibiotic (...)

That's not the only way. We have more ways:

* use low dose of antibiotic to kill enough bacteria to let the immune system to deal with the rest. Then ensure the subject is cured until all bacteria are killed so that none escape. Low dose might be needed because most antibiotics are actually pretty harmful and the harm is managed with low dose.

* use more than one antibiotic in combination with the idea there is very little chance bacteria will gain resistance to both of them at the same time.

* use the antibiotic only as a last resort. This is especially useful for bacterias that are not very harmful normally, but might become harmful for certain subjects (for example, immunosuppressed). If a bacteria with resistance escapes, the resistance might not be very useful advantage in outside environment where people do not need any help to fight off infection or when infection can be more routinely treated with another antibiotic.

Again, these are our current strategie

Re:Polymers capable of killing bacteria without inducing ant... by mike_hock on Friday December 22, 2023 @05:09PM (#38739244)
We don't need to develop an antibiotic that's impossible to gain resistance to. We just need to stay ahead of the cat&mouse game, which can go around in circles. If we start using a completely new type of antibiotics and stop using the old ones for a century, bacteria will gradually lose resistance to the old ones as they gain resistance to the new ones.
Re:Polymers capable of killing bacteria without inducing ant... by Dalewyn on Friday December 22, 2023 @05:26PM (#38739348)
>suddenly trillions of sewer bacteria get exposed to a low dose and suddenly start developing resistance.

I think you're misunderstanding how resistances work.

Bacteria don't "start developing" resistance, if they survive the antibiotic at all they already had resistance by stroke of luck. The surviving, resistant bacteria will subsequently survive and outnumber the dead, not-resistant bacteria and we generally call this "developing resistance", but the resistance itself is down to a simple question of whether it was already there or not.

Resistances do not come to existence after bacteria come across an antibiotic. If resistance is there, the dosage won't matter because the resistant bacteria will survive regardless.

Re:Polymers capable of killing bacteria without inducing ant... by hedora on Friday December 22, 2023 @07:45PM (#38740552)
> If resistance is there, the dosage won't matter because the resistant bacteria will survive regardless.

That’s not how evolution works. A few bacteria could be resistant to low doses. After the low dose, and a short wait, now the entire population is resistant to the low dose.

That gives them a much better starting point for mutations to the resistance gene and for crossing with bacteria that have some other complimentary resistance gene.

Re:Polymers capable of killing bacteria without inducing ant... by e_y_ on Friday December 22, 2023 @05:57PM (#38739587)
I think the OP's statement is perfectly fine.

We don't really care which of those trillions of sewer bacteria carries the pre-existing genes that resist an anti-biotic; we care when a new strain starts becoming prevalent and decreasing the effectiveness. From our perspective, it's a new resistant strain.

Re:Polymers capable of killing bacteria without inducing ant... by needaname on Saturday December 23, 2023 @11:10AM (#38745262)
Sounds like you actually have no idea how resistance occurs. There are mechanisms for bacteria to gain resistance they didn't start out with, it's called horizontal gene transfer. At least read the wiki before you speaking so confidently about something you know so little about.
Re:Polymers capable of killing bacteria without inducing ant... by sitharus on Friday December 22, 2023 @04:29PM (#38738886)
> To do this, we essentially need to develop something that will cause serious harm to the bacteria and yet not harm human cells.

The other problem is we depend on mutualistic bacteria to survive, if we kill all bacteria in our bodies we’ll die of malnutrition. And even worse sometimes the problem is those mutualistic bacteria getting out of balance, so we need to kill some while promoting an increase of others.

And those bacteria are constantly topped up from the environment, so we can live in a sterile environment our whole lives. It’s a delicate balance, we can’t just throw anti-bacterial things around without thought.

Re:Polymers capable of killing bacteria without inducing ant... by onetimeuse92304 on Friday December 22, 2023 @04:32PM (#38738915)
Usually antibiotic treatments do kill significant portion of bacterial flora.

That's why antibiotics are typically followed by probiotic preparations to replenish our bodies with "good" bacteria. This is not necessarily done to prevent us from dying of malnutrition. The bigger problem is that lacking "good" bacteria, we can have "bad" bacteria take over the void, causing even more problems.

Re:Polymers capable of killing bacteria without inducing ant... by lemmsjid on Friday December 22, 2023 @03:11PM (#38738089)
I am as layperson as they get on this subject matter, but I would think that even if your statement is true, perhaps we can get to the point where bacteria need to evolve so much to overcome new antibiotic approaches that they lose some of the properties that make them harmful and transmissible, i.e. it becomes harder for them to exist outside of the host, penetrate the host's defenses, etc. At some point a bacteria would need to seem so like a human cell or beneficial bacteria that it becomes non-harmful.
Re:Polymers capable of killing bacteria without inducing ant... by dkz999 on Friday December 22, 2023 @03:37PM (#38738393)
>... the point where bacteria need to evolve so much to overcome new antibiotic approaches that they...

Can't. Changed it a bit for ya.

This is the zone we need to be in for any successful treatment. This is also why e.g. humans will never evolve bullet resistance.

Re:Polymers capable of killing bacteria without inducing ant... by hedora on Friday December 22, 2023 @07:48PM (#38740572)
Sure you can. This is what happened with Covid (though antibiotics had nothing to do with it). The early, more deadly strains are less fit for transmission to masked and (later) vaccinated populations, so we ended up with less virulent but more transmissible stuff like omicron.
Re:Polymers capable of killing bacteria without inducing ant... by erikerikson on Friday December 22, 2023 @03:23PM (#38738216)
Re:Polymers capable of killing bacteria without inducing ant... by vmarovic on Friday December 22, 2023 @03:20PM (#38738191)
> A polymer that kills cell walls indiscriminately is hardly an acceptable solution for a human.

Human cells don’t have cell walls, so it would not affect them.

Re:Polymers capable of killing bacteria without inducing ant... by onetimeuse92304 on Friday December 22, 2023 @03:26PM (#38738247)
Funny... you are actually right.

But there are also bacteria without cell walls.

Re:Polymers capable of killing bacteria without inducing ant... by Turing_Machine on Friday December 22, 2023 @07:41PM (#38740517)
> A polymer that kills cell walls indiscriminately is hardly an acceptable solution for a human.

On the contrary. Animal cells do not have cell walls. They have cell membranes but that's a different thing. Many existing antibiotics interfere with the cell walls of bacteria.