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Re:The transparent chip inside a vintage Hewlett-Packard flo... by kens on Wednesday December 20, 2023 @02:25PM (#38712520)
Author here if anyone has questions. A bit of a change from my usual x86 chips...
Re:The transparent chip inside a vintage Hewlett-Packard flo... by e3a8 on Wednesday December 20, 2023 @05:19PM (#38714407)
Wonderful work! Your articles are my favorite coffee reads
Re:The transparent chip inside a vintage Hewlett-Packard flo... by myself248 on Wednesday December 20, 2023 @05:23PM (#38714444)
> Inconveniently, metal that contacts silicon, metal that crosses over silicon, and metal that forms a transistor all appear very similar in this chip. This makes it more difficult to determine the wiring.

I've heard that all diodes are LEDs, if one's vision extends to the infrared. Is it possible to fire up the chip and photograph it in the infrared, and would that make the transistors stand out?

Re:The transparent chip inside a vintage Hewlett-Packard flo... by kens on Wednesday December 20, 2023 @08:04PM (#38715870)
Well, John McMaster was able to do some IR imaging of a chip: https://hackaday.com/2019/06/20/seeing-transistors-switch-in... But in this case, I think it's easier to squint at the die to distinguish the features by subtle differences in color. It's possible to tell them apart, but I wasted a lot of time before realizing "Oh, that's a transistor‽"
Re:The transparent chip inside a vintage Hewlett-Packard flo... by KRAKRISMOTT on Wednesday December 20, 2023 @07:00PM (#38715329)
High resolution thermal imaging is tightly regulated
Re:The transparent chip inside a vintage Hewlett-Packard flo... by philipkglass on Wednesday December 20, 2023 @07:05PM (#38715383)
The emission from silicon referred to by myself248 is in the near infrared, not the thermal range. It's a commonly used diagnostic technique for silicon solar cells:

https://www.pveducation.org/pvcdrom/characterisation/electro...

I don't know if it could be used for the much smaller features found on integrated circuits, though.

Re:The transparent chip inside a vintage Hewlett-Packard flo... by gorkish on Wednesday December 20, 2023 @11:31PM (#38717033)
As the restrictions are now blocking the IMPORT of such equipment it really is getting to be quite a joke. In the US we are only allowed to have expensive potato quality cameras with 9fps and even then that's not shitty enough -- they also have to have to inject artificial noise into it!
Re:The transparent chip inside a vintage Hewlett-Packard flo... by lightedman on Wednesday December 20, 2023 @11:33PM (#38717045)
Thermal is not the same as near-red IR, which is what is being discussed here.
Re:The transparent chip inside a vintage Hewlett-Packard flo... by acuozzo on Thursday December 21, 2023 @09:23AM (#38720701)
Why?
Re:The transparent chip inside a vintage Hewlett-Packard flo... by voakbasda on Thursday December 21, 2023 @01:05PM (#38724121)
Because the government knows IR would be a pivotal tool in a civilian guerrilla uprising, and they want to keep such things out of the hands of the proletariat?
Re:The transparent chip inside a vintage Hewlett-Packard flo... by acuozzo on Thursday December 21, 2023 @01:35PM (#38724685)
Got it. It was a genuine question asked out of ignorance on my part.

How would the extra resolution be useful in warfare?

Re:The transparent chip inside a vintage Hewlett-Packard flo... by KRAKRISMOTT on Thursday December 21, 2023 @08:12PM (#38729633)
Anti aircraft missiles (everything from plane launched to manpads), heat seeking weaponry capabilities, night vision, multispectrum sensors, optical gas imaging and a whole host of other dual use scientific applications. High resolution thermal vision is the lynchpin behind all of them. I am not sure why they are still tightly controlled since you can easily acquire them overseas.
Re:The transparent chip inside a vintage Hewlett-Packard flo... by voakbasda on Friday December 22, 2023 @08:44PM (#38740872)
The US government is terrified of its citizenry, as they are the only people that stand a chance of “fixing” it.
Re:The transparent chip inside a vintage Hewlett-Packard flo... by doubled112 on Thursday December 21, 2023 @10:53AM (#38722051)
I've been successful at making many electronic parts light emitters even when they're not designed to be.

Some last longer than others under the conditions.

Re:The transparent chip inside a vintage Hewlett-Packard flo... by userbinator on Wednesday December 20, 2023 @05:42PM (#38714635)
Since you mention it was a defective part, were you able to see the defect on the die?
Re:The transparent chip inside a vintage Hewlett-Packard flo... by kens on Wednesday December 20, 2023 @08:00PM (#38715844)
We didn't see anything obviously wrong with the part. One bit of communication with the microprocessor was flaky, so it was probably a weak transistor. The consequence was that the Z80 attempted to look up a command in a lookup table, but the command wasn't there so it ended up looping through all of memory, hanging the floppy drive.
Re:The transparent chip inside a vintage Hewlett-Packard flo... by paulrpotts on Wednesday December 20, 2023 @06:24PM (#38714998)
I'm not informed enough to come up with a good question, but I love your work! And I love the concept of chips built on sapphire, even if it didn't win in the marketplace. Could we get Ruby running on ruby? :P
Re:The transparent chip inside a vintage Hewlett-Packard flo... by blacksmith_tb on Wednesday December 20, 2023 @09:12PM (#38716262)
Ruby (the gemstone) is just a red sapphire, in fact[1]. So maybe?

1: https://geology.com/gemstones/ruby-and-sapphire/

Re:The transparent chip inside a vintage Hewlett-Packard flo... by topspin on Wednesday December 20, 2023 @06:34PM (#38715086)
You mentioned that SOS still has a niche. What examples of current RF devices are using SOS?
Re:The transparent chip inside a vintage Hewlett-Packard flo... by kens on Wednesday December 20, 2023 @07:58PM (#38715832)
Peregrine Semiconductor makes various SOS products. Here's a random example, an RF digital attenuator: https://www.psemi.com/pdf/datasheets/pe43205ds.pdf
Re:The transparent chip inside a vintage Hewlett-Packard flo... by o11c on Wednesday December 20, 2023 @09:00PM (#38716192)
Thoughts on distinguishing similar-looking things:

* take multiple pictures from slightly different angles

* take pictures using sensors for different frequencies (can be done with a colored transparent sheet, though simply using different cameras will have some effect)

* shine light from different angles

* shine different frequencies of light at it

Re:The transparent chip inside a vintage Hewlett-Packard flo... by Aloha on Wednesday December 20, 2023 @10:54PM (#38716817)
Is a modern yield for SOS still as low as quoted?
Re:The transparent chip inside a vintage Hewlett-Packard flo... by kens on Wednesday December 20, 2023 @11:15PM (#38716942)
I don't have figures for modern yields. I hope the yield is better. But I think there are fundamental difficulties with matching up the sapphire and silicon crystals that tends to produce faults.
Re:The transparent chip inside a vintage Hewlett-Packard flo... by Aloha on Wednesday December 20, 2023 @11:43PM (#38717090)
I'm astounded HP made commercial products out of a process with such a low yield, I dont know how that was economical. (though none of the HP gear was exactly low margin)
Re:The transparent chip inside a vintage Hewlett-Packard flo... by kens on Wednesday December 20, 2023 @11:53PM (#38717136)
The HP Journal article mentions the 9% yield as if they are perfectly fine with it. They were building these chips internally for high-margin gear (as you said), so it probably didn't matter if the chip cost $10 or $100, as long as it has the performance that they need. It's a completely different market from microprocessors such as the 6502 or the 8086, where customers are looking closely at the cost of the chip.
Re:The transparent chip inside a vintage Hewlett-Packard flo... by Aloha on Thursday December 21, 2023 @12:32AM (#38717306)
and RF components are still in that space to a greater or lesser extent too.
Re:The transparent chip inside a vintage Hewlett-Packard flo... by morsch on Thursday December 21, 2023 @01:36AM (#38717696)
> I'm not sure what the oval stamp at the top is, maybe a turtle?

It's a teapot, on its head. How odd!

Re:The transparent chip inside a vintage Hewlett-Packard flo... by lelandfe on Thursday December 21, 2023 @01:42AM (#38717739)