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Re:Figma and Adobe are abandoning our proposed merger by hn_throwaway_99 on Monday December 18, 2023 @11:53AM (#38684995)
I think this is my favorite comment of the year. We've all become so inured to the idea, especially in startup land, that the purpose of building a business is just the exit (and hopefully we can get out soon enough with someone else "holding the bag").

As you point out, if Figma can build a growing, profitable business, there is no reason they can't IPO at some point. But still, this shows how even the purpose of an IPO these days is completely opposite from the original intention. I.e. the original intention was to get access to public market funds to grow a business. Now it's usually just a method of "exit" to let retail investors take the lion's share of the risk - one only need to look at 95%+ of the past few years' SPAC deals to see how much of a "pump and dump" the market has become.

Re:Figma and Adobe are abandoning our proposed merger by endtime on Monday December 18, 2023 @12:39PM (#38685632)
> that the purpose of building a business is just the exit

The majority of those affected negatively by this are not the founders, but the employees. Many of them may have turned down FAANG positions that come with predictable liquid RSUs. Some may have kids (in fact, I know someone at Figma who had a kid in the past year).

Liquidity's not necessarily about opportunistically passing on risk...sometimes it's just about making a competitive living relative to being at a public company.

Re:Figma and Adobe are abandoning our proposed merger by kelnos on Monday December 18, 2023 @04:30PM (#38688594)
And that's the risk/bargain those employees accepted when they took the job at Figma rather than some public company with predictable equity comp.

Look, it sucks, I get that. I was an employee at a successful startup that did end up going public and made me a bunch of money. But I also worked at three other startups that didn't go anywhere and my options/stock ended up being worthless. I also worked at a "boring" public company with equity comp that amounted to a pretty small (but helpful!) quarterly bonus.

I accepted each of those jobs knowing what I was getting into, and knowing that I probably wouldn't see any kind of big payday (the one where I did was life-changing, but if that hadn't happened, I'd still be fine, financially). That's the nature of the beast. It's disappointing when it doesn't work out, but don't play the "some of them have kids" card: people need to plan their finances based on normal, expected outcomes, not on the moonshot.

And regardless, Figma still seems like a great company, with great products. Employees will still likely do really well, whether through a different acquisition or by going public. They'll just have to wait longer.

Re:Figma and Adobe are abandoning our proposed merger by hn_throwaway_99 on Monday December 18, 2023 @01:06PM (#38686027)
I don't disagree with what you're saying, at all, but the implication is still basically "And employees want someone else to be a bag holder, too!"

And having been in that position several times, I definitely don't blame them! Employees also have the much tougher constraints that they can't diversify their employment like VCs can diversify their investments.

But still, it's the same dynamic that people want to get rich, and the downstream consequences be damned.

Re:Figma and Adobe are abandoning our proposed merger by amrocha on Monday December 18, 2023 @02:49PM (#38687267)
In practice, employee shares in a private company are not an "investment" because they can't be traded in an open market. So no, employees don't want someone else to hold the bag. Employees want a return on their investment, and the most viable way of doing that is through an exit.
Re:Figma and Adobe are abandoning our proposed merger by hn_throwaway_99 on Monday December 18, 2023 @02:59PM (#38687379)
That's the whole point though - employees want an exit event so they can sell their shares and have someone else holding the bag.
Re:Figma and Adobe are abandoning our proposed merger by crandycodes on Monday December 18, 2023 @03:42PM (#38687925)
That seems like an odd way to frame it, imo. "Holding the bag" usually implies something negative, as in someone will be "caught" with something bad. As in the employees are looking to dupe someone into buying what they are selling. But employees, outside of company officers, do not control what information investors get about what they are buying. They can't trick anyone into buying something, although they could theoretically benefit if someone else did trick buyers.

But it's a weird take, because employees are already the ones "holding the bag". Office space, cloud compute, etc. are all sold as COGS. VCs usually have some ability to sell their shares on the private market since they can negotiate to get their capital. Employees are often the only ones which are taking an IOU for their time and effort compared to what they could get elsewhere in the market. Employees are often the lowest class of shares which get paid out last and often reliant on the board to be able to sell on the private market. Yes, the employees decided to take this offer, on good faith, that their management would look after them. They are adults who made a, theoretically, informed decision. But structurally, they are set up to be the ones "holding the bag" if things were to go wrong with an exit.

So of course they want an exit. They literally have no other choice to get a return on their time/effort than for that to happen. (or some odd third thing like private dividends, but again, they have practically no control over that happening)

Re:Figma and Adobe are abandoning our proposed merger by kelnos on Monday December 18, 2023 @04:35PM (#38688664)
> They literally have no other choice...

Sure they have (had) another choice: they could have taken employment at a more stable (possibly public) company, where compensation would have been more predictable.

But they chose to work at a smaller, private company, and accepted private-company equity as part of their compensation, which 9 times out of 10 ends up being worth zero dollars. This idea that they're somehow entitled to a payout is ridiculous.

The situation that the VCs and founders are in is often enviable, but isn't really relevant here. Regular employees need to be financially responsible about accepting jobs with private-company equity comp, and not expect miracles. That's the bottom line.

(I agree that "holding the bag" is a weird way to frame this, though.)

Re:Figma and Adobe are abandoning our proposed merger by crandycodes on Tuesday December 19, 2023 @11:27AM (#38697634)
> The situation that the VCs and founders are in is often enviable, but isn't really relevant here.

Respectfully disagree. It's relevant to the extent the parent comment was talking about employees wanting to have someone else "hold the bag".

> Regular employees need to be financially responsible about accepting jobs with private-company equity comp, and not expect miracles.

Agree that it's their responsibility and no one should be starting a kickstarter for them or anything. But that doesn't mean you can't sympathize with them. They are often fairly young people who aren't experts on contract law. It's not unreasonable to say that at least some of them have been exploited with excessive promises. The industry would be a better place if rather than say "they should have known better", we instead said "employers shouldn't exploit people". A precedent of bad behavior shouldn't excuse it.

Re:Figma and Adobe are abandoning our proposed merger by Earw0rm on Monday December 18, 2023 @05:02PM (#38688981)
Yep, shares are part of the comp package, it's entirely natural that employees want to turn the fruits of their labour into liquid cash at some point.

There is a valid argument that that's a perverse incentive, and that companies should just pay employees better to begin with, or have various longevity/performance-associated bonuses, but if the company isn't profitable, share value is perhaps the best way to represent that.

And on top of that, employee share schemes tend to get very favourable tax treatment. So overall "skin in the game" is no bad thing, the problem is that, in many/most cases, an exit is the only way you're going to get your skin back out of the game.

Re:Figma and Adobe are abandoning our proposed merger by philosopher1234 on Monday December 18, 2023 @03:21PM (#38687651)
Employees have much higher risk profiles, even if they hold no shares at all, than”bag holders” because they tend to have 100% of their families financial well being invested in a single company. Virtually no investors have even close to such a big bag holders
Re:Figma and Adobe are abandoning our proposed merger by amrocha on Monday December 18, 2023 @02:47PM (#38687236)
What does it matter if Figma employees have kids? Having kids is one of the most common human experiences.
Re:Figma and Adobe are abandoning our proposed merger by EricDeb on Monday December 18, 2023 @12:45PM (#38685707)
Any chance figma can go public?
Re:Figma and Adobe are abandoning our proposed merger by neom on Monday December 18, 2023 @01:34PM (#38686316)
I'm sure these 30+ people want their 330+ Million dollars back with "profit", they need to find an exit somewhere.

https://www.figma.com/blog/figmas-series-e/

Re:Figma and Adobe are abandoning our proposed merger by EdwardDiego on Monday December 18, 2023 @02:33PM (#38687079)
Figmates... oh God.
Re:Figma and Adobe are abandoning our proposed merger by dolmen on Wednesday December 20, 2023 @04:23AM (#38706789)
Figma employees should instead ask for a share of the $1B break-up fees.
Re:Figma and Adobe are abandoning our proposed merger by Drew_ on Monday December 18, 2023 @07:09PM (#38690141)
> The majority of those affected negatively by this are not the founders, but the employees.

Well yes there are typically many more employees than there are founders. Despite this, founders probably missed out on orders of magnitude more money than all of the employees combined.

Re:Figma and Adobe are abandoning our proposed merger by kalleboo on Monday December 18, 2023 @09:04PM (#38690935)
Most people who have kids make a fraction of the average salary at figma, I don't see how they are sacrificing anything
Re:Figma and Adobe are abandoning our proposed merger by Gooblebrai on Monday December 18, 2023 @12:50PM (#38685784)
Totally agree with you. It feels like nowadays businesses are not really about making a profitable business. But about vanity metrics and get a huge exit ASAP even if the business doesn't really survive without VC injections.
Re:Figma and Adobe are abandoning our proposed merger by solatic on Monday December 18, 2023 @03:39PM (#38687890)
> the original intention was to get access to public market funds to grow a business. Now it's usually just a method of "exit" to let retail investors take the lion's share of the risk

Founders and employees would be totally OK with staying private, if the board would ever permit issuing a dividend. That's the "normal" way to have an "exit" (i.e. return profits to shareholders) without a public offering. The purpose of delaying issuing a dividend is to reinvest profits / additional fundraising for growth, but that growth should still result in a dividend in the future, just a larger one if the investment in growth succeeds.

Instead, founders and employees are encouraged to look forward to an IPO precisely because somehow we've come to believe that it's sinful for a company to issue a dividend, as if doing so means giving up on the idea that further growth is possible, when really it's only an acknowledgement of the fact that (a) there's a healthy rate of growth, (b) that healthy rate of growth costs $X, (c) if the company has $Y cash >> $X growth cost, then the healthy thing to do is to issue a dividend (so that shareholders can invest the excess into companies that are currently better recipients), rather than attempting to force growth faster than the company can support.

Re:Figma and Adobe are abandoning our proposed merger by TheNewsIsHere on Monday December 18, 2023 @04:39PM (#38688705)
This is good analysis. As the owner of a business, I often find myself bewildered at the valuation-centric, IPO-gazing startup culture that has developed especially in tech.

Most businesses in technology are nothing like the VC-funded, exit-oriented, and/or hyper-growth culture would have you think. Yet it seems like the glitz of a great IPO or being able to shell out for a $200 million annual corporate event blinds many to the reality of most businesses.

I have wondered how much of this naïveté contributes to the failure rate of technology startups.

I’m on my second business and I intend for it to be my last, though time will tell. The key thing I’ve learned is that hyper-growth, IPOs, and VCs aren’t really good for anyone other than the equity holders. Once you start selling ownership in your business, your customers are no longer your first North Star.

Re:Figma and Adobe are abandoning our proposed merger by kelnos on Monday December 18, 2023 @04:42PM (#38688748)
In the case where a private company has issued options or shares as a part of compensation, another way to pay back employees would be to do a stock buyback program. E.g. if I was an early employee and got options with a $1/share strike price, but the current going rate for new-employee options is $5/share, the company could offer to buy back my options from me at $4 each (or if I'd exercised those options, they could buy the shares back at the full $5 price).

If the general understanding was that the founders (well, board) weren't chasing an acquisition or IPO, this might be a good deal for employees. Of course, if the company is VC-backed (and the founders don't have majority control anymore), the VCs probably wouldn't go for this sort of thing.

I do actually wonder if the current trend of consolidation is driven in part by the standard VC-backed startup formula. Getting acquired is usually a lot easier than going public. Instead of startups fueling long-term competition, they just end up getting gobbled up by larger players most of the time, fueling consolidation and monopolistic behavior.

Re:Figma and Adobe are abandoning our proposed merger by ang_cire on Thursday December 21, 2023 @02:13PM (#38725265)
Even if it's VC backed, there's little reason for the VCs to prevent them doing a non-takeover tender offer in order to allow employees to cash out some (often capped) portion of their vested options and let in a new private shareholder.

And as someone who went through an acquisition exit in a just-shy-of-unicorn startup by a very big dog, yes, everyone's/VC's aversion to IPOs is definitely making it easier for said big dog companies to acquire people who in the past would have been shoe-ins for excellent IPOs.

Re:Figma and Adobe are abandoning our proposed merger by financypants on Monday December 18, 2023 @06:30PM (#38689855)
Unfortunately if you have VCs on your capitalization table you can pretty much never issue dividends as a private company
Re:Figma and Adobe are abandoning our proposed merger by throwup238 on Tuesday December 19, 2023 @04:51PM (#38702189)
As if the employees would ever see any of that dividend. If startups paid out dividends, VCs would require them to be part of the liquidation preference clause.

IPOs and huge sales far above the liquidation preference is the only way any of the employees would see any of that money.

Re:Figma and Adobe are abandoning our proposed merger by roncesvalles on Tuesday December 19, 2023 @06:27PM (#38703408)
The purpose of the stock market is that a company can issue its own currency, and then print more of that currency whenever it needs to raise money, which automatically absorbs value from all outstanding investors (i.e. shareholders).
Re:Figma and Adobe are abandoning our proposed merger by kpandit on Monday December 18, 2023 @03:58PM (#38688166)
My favourite comment as well in this world so full of pump and dump shows. The mentality is so intrenched that if you are not one of these pump and dump shows with an exit strategy then you are labelled a lifestyle business instead of a proper "startup".

[Off topic] That is some throwaway account with 60k+ karma and almost 7 years in age.

Re:Figma and Adobe are abandoning our proposed merger by codeptualize on Monday December 18, 2023 @04:48PM (#38688840)
There are lots of pump and dumps but this one isn't a pump and dump. Figma was founded in 2012, they pretty much took over UI design, did $400M ARR in 2022, great retention, rapid growth, great margins, there is a lots of actual value there and still quite a bit of potential left.

A "proper" startup does indeed include an exit as that's the point where they give a return on investment to their VC's. That is the startup game, use the VC money to accelerate growth, then exit/go public.

Not saying I like it, but once you take the VC money that is the game you play.

Re:Figma and Adobe are abandoning our proposed merger by kpandit on Monday December 18, 2023 @05:24PM (#38689245)
My bad. I was just responding to the parent comment and the comment(by showbug) they were replying to in isolation. Figma is a product I liked and was so terribly disappointed with the news of acquisition by adobe.

Regarding startups, I just did google "define: startup" and in the dictionary definition there has no VC and no exit.

Re:Figma and Adobe are abandoning our proposed merger by porridgeraisin on Monday December 18, 2023 @08:34PM (#38690732)
What the dictionary says is completely irrelevant.
Re:Figma and Adobe are abandoning our proposed merger by codeptualize on Tuesday December 19, 2023 @07:21AM (#38694684)
We can debate definitions and labels but that's not really relevant to the discussion imo, name it whatever you want, what I'm referring to is a company taking VC money to accelerate growth.

Once you take VC money, like Figma did, your goal is a lucrative exit.

It's high risk, high reward. It's a different way to build a company, and it's not really possible to change that once you take that route.

Doesn't mean you have to do this. I am all for building steady profitable private companies that aim for the long run, I think it's a great way to build great companies, but then you should stay far away from VC money, take a lot less risk, have different compensation strategies etc etc.

Re:Figma and Adobe are abandoning our proposed merger by michaelcampbell on Thursday December 21, 2023 @11:42AM (#38722833)
> It's high risk...

for everyone

> , high reward.

for the owners, solely.

For everyone else, notably generally those that actually produced the thing of value, the reward is that if you're VERY VERY LUCKY, you get to keep your job.

Re:Figma and Adobe are abandoning our proposed merger by cco on Monday December 18, 2023 @07:25PM (#38690261)
That's the intended outcome of the incentive structure of startup compensation.

Sometimes more than half of your expected compensation at a startup is in equity upside, either from an IPO or acquisition.

If that is to no longer be the expectation, then hiring at startups will be _much_ more challenging because startups cannot generally afford the salaries or benefits that larger companies can offer.

Re:Figma and Adobe are abandoning our proposed merger by frozenport on Tuesday December 19, 2023 @03:18AM (#38693137)
that is already the case, with unlimited equity you're basically working on the founders dream in exchange for dilution