"If you think these things aren’t fair or suck, then you should try to move out of the leet coder path and get on the capital owner or business operator side."

Some people like engineering and don't want to have to do an entirely different career. I would love to be treated as a human as an engineer (which is why I'm trying to leave the big companies but it's hard to find a company much better)

Then unfortunately they will always be at the mercy of their employer. Whether that employer is paying them 400k plus or a govt job paying 70k.

Approaching your work as contracting (even if you are regular employee) helps to think about the job more rationally. You exchange x hours of time for y amount of money. Also helps to keep in mind to check you value in the job market.

There are positions where you can just stay put engineering all day but entails being an irreplaceable resource to your employer - so only few generally can get to this niche.

I used to have this attitude in my early 30s when I first made >500k. I thought I was indestructable, irreplacable and had an ego to match it. What a humbling experience it was to be laid off, in fact I think it was one of the best things to have happened to me. My relationship to work and business is much healthier now. I just smile at the silly games tech employers and their staff play.

How did your perspective change and what changed moving forward?

I told the CISO he was an idiot who didn't understand security (in front of many peers), because we disagreed on implementation. Soon after I was fired for "violating company policy".

I realized being right is not the most important thing in the world, certainly not more important than being employed. The other lesson was to never involve myself in office politics again: it is irrelevant and ultimately lowers your standing in an organization.

Another lesson you missed: don't be disrespectful to coworkers, including bosses. You are not entitled to offending people in a work environment.

Just because he/she didn't explicitly type it doesn't mean they missed the lesson.

Thats a lesson that you have to learn at work?

How does one get away in life being disprespetful to ppl you interact with. I don't get it.

> The other lesson was to never involve myself in office politics again

Yea I think the real lesson here is 1. treat people with respect even when you vehemently disagree and 2. You were really bad at office politics. The entire name of the game in politics is to piss off the least number of people possible.

So you were fired, not laid off. If you're a wagie (even making 500k) i would just smile and collect the paychecks.

What’s your TC now?

A few years on, it's 650, so I actually did myself a favor getting fired, even though at the time I was filled with regret and resentment. In retrospect, the job was miserable and I was acting out because I was deeply unhappy.

Whoa holy crap that's a lot of money. Who are you working for?

That’s standard or a little bit low for a staff engineer at FAANG and top tier tech.

See https://www.levels.fyi/blog/2023-mid-year-report.html

It's really funny to see hackers fall in line to work at big companies. In the 90s all the true hackers hated large established companies and would show them the finger and work for scrappy upstarts. And now all the kids are bending over backwards to work for these large corporations doing hours of leetcode. What a shame.

It's almost as if when kids grow up and have kids of their own, and have bills to pay, they hold their nose and do things they don't really want to do. of course, some of us never grow up and live in hippie communes and eschew the trappings of things like money.

Who are you talking to?

The Internet?

The hackers of the 90s and 00s are a different breed than those today. Today, many go through a boot camp and enjoy a cozy job. Might as well be an accountant or in HR.

The hackers of the early days were tinkerers. Odd ones out, often. They are still out there, but absolutely not taking the traditional path.

I think another problem today is that startups do not truly differentiate. They try to be a mini Google. Startups in the 90s were much more brash. Look at Apple's ads against IBM for example. Everything has become far more tame these days. So why join a mini Google when you can join the real Google instead.

In addition to this, there's been a lot of people flooding to tech because the financial incentives are so high and the cost of entry isn't overwhelming. A lot of people want to cash out -- which isn't a crime -- but it's result in a cultural change that's diluted the share of incorrigible hackers.

It's kind of weird to see big corporations want to attract talent but then act surprised or salty when people don't like being treated like a line item in a budget.

It's nothing personal. I'm sure your company is great and you truly believe in your mission beyond just providing value to shareholders but humans like stability and to be treated like people. You might be a Fortune 500 but you're not god just a job.

If you think these things aren't fair or suck, you should try treating people better or else deal with the organized labor that will make decisions for you.

Sorry, it's getting kind of annoying to see employers not getting this.

Unfortunately people will still want to work there and grind LC and work at other companies as stepping stones to get in.

Yeah, but not for long though- see turnover rates.

> If you think these things aren’t fair or suck, then you should try to move out of the leet coder path and get on the capital owner or business operator side.

You could also try to improve society.

People don’t have to just take it, they can fight back. All power comes from the consent of the masses, none of these guys have the physical power to compel any of us to do anything at all, including let them live.

Look what is happening to Tesla in Scandinavia right now for an entirely different take on what people can do if they don’t think things are fair.

Why don’t you try to change society then? Honest question why do people always want someone else to do it?

Go start a business with your friends who think same way. See if you can build a business that can take care of its employees and do something good.

You could change your own life and that of your colleagues.

Never go public, and you don’t have any pressure to grow at all costs. Don’t take on debt.

Oh right. It’s literally a week of effort to do some LC and get a 400k job lol.

Compared to a monumentally larger effort to start and sustain a business, which may or may not even make it a year.

> Why don’t you try to change society then?

I do try to change society.

It's only hard to start a business if you are poor...

It does not take a week of effort to do LC.

Additionally, HR (Human Resources) reports to the CFO in most companies.

All you have to do is look at the org chart to understand that HR is a function within finance, and everything within finance is about numbers, resources (including human resources).

HR and Finance people think about data and make decisions in spreadsheets. No emotion. They also realize they'll be rewarded (via stock market, or investors) by doing things that are best for their business (according to their spreadsheets..), even if it might create a temporary PR issue or temporary morale issue.

> If you think these things aren’t fair or suck, then you should try to move out of the leet coder path and get on the capital owner or business operator side.

Or… unionize. Y’know, hack the corporation.

A pawn in the game.

I like how in your comment, the salary went from 400k to 200k. Just like what happned to these leet coders this past 2 years.

400k TC, 200k base. That's pretty average for most experienced engineers.